7 ms·

The demise of America's once-mighty streetcars

71 points by qzervaas 11y ago

struppi 11y ago
The reasons sound very compelling, but I think one reason is missing. I would suggest that the main reason streetcars survived in many cities in Europe, but not in the USA is: Here in Europe, public transport is not done by privately owned companies, but by the Cities themselves. So the city is very interested in keeping them running. And it can also keep the fares low by tax subsidies. For example, here in Linz (AT), I only pay €285,00 instead of €444,34 for an annual ticket, because the city of Linz pays the rest for its residents.
- the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
  Austria also lost lots of streetcars to the cars and so did many other cities in Europe. A big reason for that was the switch to the right for traffic. As there were alternatives there was sometimes no reason to keep the trams.
  - Gravityloss 11y ago
    People are openly wondering why people in developing countries want to keep on cooking with dirty smoky stoves while there would be easy to use better cleaner alternatives. http://www.wired.com/2012/08/gates-foundation-toilets/ http://www.wired.com/2012/08/gates-foundation-toilets/ Reminds me of the switch from streetcars to cars - who in their right mind would want to start polluting the city? Maybe back then the air quality was atrocious anyway because of all the inner city industry and heating.
  - ExpiredLink 11y ago
    I happen to know that Linz (AT) and other European cities currently build new streetcar lines.
    - kagamine 11y ago
      And in Edinburgh, no wait they don't, yes they do. Eh no, they don't. (Joke explainer for the non-Scots: Edinburgh began building a street-car (tram) system some years ago, massively over budget and a huge political mess, it is now as good as shelved. There is one tram but it doesn't move, but you can look at it if you want to).
      - fredoralive 11y ago
        Actually, the Edinburgh trams line opened about a year ago. Hugely delayed, a shorter line than planned and massively over budget, but they're actually running trams on it now.
        kagamine 11y ago
        Where does it go? I moved from the UK so I have lost all contact with the ongoing fiascoes.
        fredoralive 11y ago
        I may as well reply somewhat late to say the final route goes from the airport to York Place, which isn't even the complete phase 1. Or the complete Phase 1a. They basically seem to have reached to the point where the route linked the airport to the main train station and decided to call it a day. Someone on Wikipedia made a map that illustrates the original plans vs. what has actually been built. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Edinburgh_tramway_map.svg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Edinburgh_tramway_map...
        kagamine 11y ago
        Aha, thanks.
    - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
      Sure, and so do probably the US. There is no denying however that lines were lost after the war all over the world for different reasons. Austria currently has streetcars in Graz, Linz, Vienna, Gmunden and Innsbruck. The only lines that is growing are Linz? On the other hand we lost Baden, Dornbirn-Lustenau, Ebelsberg-St. Florian, Klagenfurt, Salzburg, St. Pölten, Unterach–See and Ybbs. Most of them to buses and cars.
- hueving 11y ago
  The article pointed out that the issue was because of the fare lock-ins, not because they were private. Do you realize how ridiculous 5 cents is, even for 1920? That's like 59 cents in todays buying power. Even the subsidized 285 Euro price you pay for a yearly pass could have afforded multiple rides nearly every day paying per ride at those rates.
  - struppi 11y ago
    And you think the cities would have insisted in fare lock-ins, had they operated the street cars themselves?
    - hueving 11y ago
      They were stupid enough to do it to the companies, there is little reason to believe they wouldn't have caved to the same political pressure from constituents to keep the prices low if they were operating it.
- ExpiredLink 11y ago
  BTW, private car usage is heavily subsidized. Streets and parking lots are paid by the tax-payer in most countries around the world.
Animats 11y ago
San Francisco, of course, kept much of its streetcar system. It's still running and expanding. San Francisco even has trolley buses. They climb steep hills without problems, which is why they were originally installed.
- jacobolus 11y ago
  Much of it? Not even close. Here’s a map from 1914. Thin red lines are street cars: http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~214476~5501692 http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~21... These days we mostly have a combination of a few places connected to BART/Muni, and the rest handled by buses and trolleybuses, which are in general incredibly slow, because they get stuck in car traffic and make frequent long stops to load and unload passengers. There are a couple of cable cars, and one restored streetcar line, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Market_%26_Wharves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Market_%26_Wharves, but they’re mostly kept that way as tourist attractions and curiosities.
  - ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
    The F gets used quite a bit by locals to commute.
- ggreer 11y ago
  The cable cars are purely a tourist attraction. Waiting times can exceed an hour, so nobody uses them to commute. The rest of SF Muni is a joke. Average fleet speed is 8mph and has been declining. On one Sunday workout, I outran an express line from its start to finish. Anyone on a bicycle can beat Muni in price, speed, and convenience. The situation would be comical if it didn't cost taxpayers $800 million per year.
- brycemckinlay 11y ago
  Toronto still has a fairly extensive streetcar network. A few former routes have been closed, but that's mostly because they were replaced by Subway lines. The Streetcar network was expanded as recently as the 1990s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_streetcar_system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_streetcar_system
stinos 11y ago
A friend of mine has a rather compelling theory that the principle of streetcars is going to make it's re-entry in the future, in a slightly different form though: self-driving cars which are shared in a on demand (cars owned by private or public companies)/carpool-like (private owners sharing their car) way. The self-driving aspect makes it a bit similar to a streetcar in that it should not deviate from the road, as does the on demand aspect: in it's glory days in city centers they were everywhere close to you at regular times so you'd never had to wait long before before one was available. Anyway, whether one finds it similar to streetcars or not, the most compelling about such system is that it would, together with a mentility change away from 'car is king', probably be able to get rid of a lot of traffic jams and more importantly all the problems they pose. Because it basically is a form of decentralized (must be good, right :P) public transport which is lacking now in most countries and cities: something which can get you from A to B at any time of the day or night without requiring walking/cycling to intermediate points where you then have to wait for your bus/train/.. to arrive.
- scotty79 11y ago
  > something which can get you from A to B at any time of the day or night without requiring walking/cycling to intermediate points where you then have to wait for your bus/train/.. to arrive. Taxi?!
  - oblio 11y ago
    $$$
- dalke 11y ago
  There are a number of differences between what streetcars do and what you mention. The streetcars I'm most familiar with are directly connected to the power grid through overhead lines, and are on rails. Cars would need batteries as private cars won't have a pantograph, or fuel. In either case, there are more things that can break in a fleet of smaller vehicles, so maintenance is higher. Cars also use rubber wheels on pavement, rather than steel wheels on rails, so have higher rolling friction. Streetcars can also handle a high density of passengers. This is important for rush hour, when the load is high. A streetcar has about 3x the capacity of a similarly sized bus, which is in turn much higher than passenger vehicles. In turn, as the article points out, streetcars are best when they have dedicated right-of-way, which allows a higher throughput and predictable latency compared to cars, which are more subject to gridlock. Also, the improved capacity feeds back on itself when people build high-density (eg, 5 story buildings instead of single family houses) along streetcar corridors. The more recent streetcars are also better designed for a wide variety of users. For example, some of the ones I know have a platform which is only slightly above the curb level. This makes it easier for a parent pushing a stroller, or someone with difficulties walking, or on a wheelchair, to enter the streetcar unassisted. The same is not true of most cars. Finally, there are some environmental difference. A personal vehicle has the advantage of not sharing space with strangers. It has the disadvantage that you and your 9 friends can't all travel together. And a streetcar is usually a much smoother ride; a friend get nauseous after 10 minutes as a passenger in cars and buses, but not in streetcars. So while what your friend says is true, there are other factors which make it less compelling.
scotty79 11y ago
That's the funniest thing because that's a rare example of conspiracy theory that actually happened, succeeded and shaped cultural perception of trams and public transit in general in one large country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspi... You probably can't say that what they did was decisive as there were more factors in play but they tried in a covert way and prevented any chance of recovery. For a dense city having a streetcar is no-brainer. Whatever you pay for planning, building and maintaining light-rail and subsidizing its operation, it will pay for itself in increase in taxes collected from business growing thanks to offloading road network from whole lot of cars, lower traffic, cleaner air and lower necessary car ownership. All this clean electric car revolution with energy recovery, low number of moving parts and so on, that's happening now, for trams happened 50 or more years ago.
- yvdriess 11y ago
  Not to mention streetcars as a possible vehicle (no pun intended) for alternative power plants or fuel sources. Some of the arguments against alternatives for the internal combustion engine fall away if you do not have to deal with the needs that consumer cars have. Gyro power plant for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrobus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrobus Compressed air: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_motor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_motor
- raverbashing 11y ago
  > All this clean electric car revolution with energy recovery, low number of moving parts and so on, that's happening now, for trams happened 50 or more years ago. True. But the thing is that: it sucked You know that "lever up, tram goes, lever down it stops"? It was something like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiometer#Rheostat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiometer#Rheostat Sure, mass transit is good, electrical/hybrid ones even better, but as much as I hate mechanical ICEs, the electrical ones weren't much better. And mass transit can profit a lot from hybrid technologies
- txru 11y ago
  FWIW, the article disagrees with this reading of the conspiracy. > While it's true that National City continued ripping up lines and replacing them with buses — and that, long-term, GM benefited from the decline of mass transit — it's very hard to argue that National City killed the streetcar on its own. Streetcar systems went bankrupt and were dismantled in virtually every metro area in the United States, and National City was only involved in about 10 percent of cases.
evandijk70 11y ago
Street cars are still around here in the Netherlands. I don't like them for the reasons given in the article: They get stuck in traffic jams (even though they have the right of way). That makes them very slow during traffic hours, even slower than simply biking. A subway system, like the one they have in New York and in London, is superior in every way. They are building a new line in Amsterdam now, which will replace some of the street cars, and I can't wait for them to finish it.
- scotty79 11y ago
  The caveat with trams is that you need to plan for them. Slapping tram in the middle of the road to share it with cars won't do you that much good.
- yvdriess 11y ago
  It is rare for trams in Belgian cities to still drive on the road. Most have gotten a separate bedding. https://www.google.be/maps/@50.829617,4.434058,3a,75y,12.81h,73.54t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s8bDdcxNwZmZuE2DVhoBD4g!2e0!6m1!1e1 https://www.google.be/maps/@50.829617,4.434058,3a,75y,12.81h... https://www.google.be/maps/@50.826726,4.39792,3a,75y,247.36h,80.24t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sNVPO9xmTvUt2_wiCbPQX6g!2e0!6m1!1e1 https://www.google.be/maps/@50.826726,4.39792,3a,75y,247.36h...
- bkor 11y ago
  Streetcars work fine enough in Rotterdam. Is your experience limited to Amsterdam city centre? The metro live you speak of had been heavily delayed and way over budget. I prefer metro lines, but that's because I can more readily figure out where it's going and how.
- Xylakant 11y ago
  The situation is fairly interesting: In the old eastern part streetcars still exist, while they were dismantled in the old western parts. I notice that the streetcar fills an important role in the transport network: It's faster, more reliable and higher capacity than buses but still cheaper and with a more dense network than subway or light rail. It efficiently bridges the gap and provides access to to areas that are less well connected by the large lines. Reaching those areas in East Berlin is a breeze, reaching them in West Berlin a pain. Street cars usually don't share the roads though.
oblio 11y ago
I wonder how in Europe "streetcars" (actually "tramways", I don't think anyone here calls them "streetcars") remained popular. From what I've seen in the US the ones that still are running are relics and are mostly tourist attractions (such as San Francisco). Meanwhile in places like Berlin or Brussles they look like they're out of some SciFi movie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_Berlin#/media/File:Bombardier_Flexity_Berlin.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_Berlin#/media/File:Bom... http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brusselse_tram#/media/File:23_2elansiers.jpg http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brusselse_tram#/media/File:23_2...
- stiGGG 11y ago
  Tram or Straßenbahn (streettrain) is correct. I am from Berlin, if you remove public transit here, the city will collapse tomorrow. The old european cities weren't planned at the drawing board like the us. There are already way to much cars, it would be impossible to handle if everybody had one.
  - waqf 11y ago
    To be fair, though, by the time of German reunification, most of the West Berlin trams had been removed just as in other Western European countries. (West Berlin still had public transport, notably the U-Bahn, but not trams specifically.) Unified Berlin then inherited a tram network from East Berlin which played well into the post-'90s renaissance of enthusiasm for trams and light rail.
- bane 11y ago
  The U.S. has similar systems in a few cities still. Austin, TX (of all places) has a heavy surface metro system that operates like a tram. [1] Portland, Oregon, largely considered to have one of the best public transit systems in the U.S. has a tram backbone. [2] The good news is that it looks like streetcars are trying to make a comeback. D.C. is reintroducing streetcar service [3] [4] and has a plan for city-wide service (about 60km worth) [5], a return the old normal [6] My understanding is that similar programs are getting kick-off across the U.S. as the long realization of how bad things are without them. [7] [8] [9] 1 - https://www.google.com/search?q=austin+metro&espv=2&biw=1527&bih=841&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=k7FMVfnDB8_isATzt4G4Ag&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw#tbm=isch&q=austin+metro+rail&revid=1287911562 https://www.google.com/search?q=austin+metro&espv=2&biw=1527... 2 - https://www.google.com/search?q=austin+metro&espv=2&biw=1527&bih=841&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=k7FMVfnDB8_isATzt4G4Ag&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw#tbm=isch&q=portland+trimet https://www.google.com/search?q=austin+metro&espv=2&biw=1527... 3 - https://www.google.com/search?q=u.s.+tram&espv=2&biw=1527&bih=841&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=crJMVcqTD42wsATXxYCgBg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw#tbm=isch&q=d.c.+streetcar https://www.google.com/search?q=u.s.+tram&espv=2&biw=1527&bi... 4 - http://www.dcstreetcar.com/ http://www.dcstreetcar.com/ 5 - http://www.dcstreetcar.com/projects/37-mile-streetcar-system/ http://www.dcstreetcar.com/projects/37-mile-streetcar-system... 6 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcars_in_Washington,_D.C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcars_in_Washington,_D.C. 7 - http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/50106 http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/50106 8 - http://www.forbes.com/pictures/emeh45iedd/los-angeles-streetcars-ready-to-return/ http://www.forbes.com/pictures/emeh45iedd/los-angeles-street... 9 - http://wnpr.org/post/return-american-streetcar http://wnpr.org/post/return-american-streetcar
peter303 11y ago
A version called light rail is returning. My city built 7 long lines for 4 billion dollars. Most of the lines shadow freeways.
ska 11y ago
Toronto is one of the rare North American cities that has both a functional metro and street cars with significant coverage. Not that both don't have their detractors, and the city (or rather the GTA, which includes a lot of commuter suburbs) can't make up it's mind about scaling them up or down. Having a transit backbone infrastructure like this changes the nature of a city, I think.
mml 11y ago
Here in Minneapolis, the streetcar was killed by the Duluth Bus Company (DuPont/GM). The governor lost his job when he got caught taking kickbacks from the below market sale of the steel from the lines, which was organized by Meyer Lansky & Isadore "Kid Kann" Blumenfeld. The MRTC was then taken over by the then president of Marquette bank, a one Carl Pohlad, who's offspring own the local MLB franchise. Many of the MRTC cars ran in Mexico City for many years, the rest were burned. There is one 1/4mi long museum line by lake Harriet remaining (worth a visit). Meyer & Blumenfeld retired together and ran real estate scams until they died in the early 80s. (Or so the story goes)

71 points by qzervaas 11y ago

The reasons sound very compelling, but I think one reason is missing. I would suggest that the main reason streetcars survived in many cities in Europe, but not in the USA is: Here in Europe, public transport is not done by privately owned companies, but by the Cities themselves. So the city is very interested in keeping them running. And it can also keep the fares low by tax subsidies. For example, here in Linz (AT), I only pay €285,00 instead of €444,34 for an annual ticket, because the city of Linz pays the rest for its residents.

the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
Austria also lost lots of streetcars to the cars and so did many other cities in Europe. A big reason for that was the switch to the right for traffic. As there were alternatives there was sometimes no reason to keep the trams.
- Gravityloss 11y ago
  People are openly wondering why people in developing countries want to keep on cooking with dirty smoky stoves while there would be easy to use better cleaner alternatives. http://www.wired.com/2012/08/gates-foundation-toilets/ http://www.wired.com/2012/08/gates-foundation-toilets/ Reminds me of the switch from streetcars to cars - who in their right mind would want to start polluting the city? Maybe back then the air quality was atrocious anyway because of all the inner city industry and heating.
- ExpiredLink 11y ago
  I happen to know that Linz (AT) and other European cities currently build new streetcar lines.
  - kagamine 11y ago
    And in Edinburgh, no wait they don't, yes they do. Eh no, they don't. (Joke explainer for the non-Scots: Edinburgh began building a street-car (tram) system some years ago, massively over budget and a huge political mess, it is now as good as shelved. There is one tram but it doesn't move, but you can look at it if you want to).
    - fredoralive 11y ago
      Actually, the Edinburgh trams line opened about a year ago. Hugely delayed, a shorter line than planned and massively over budget, but they're actually running trams on it now.
      - kagamine 11y ago
        Where does it go? I moved from the UK so I have lost all contact with the ongoing fiascoes.
        fredoralive 11y ago
        I may as well reply somewhat late to say the final route goes from the airport to York Place, which isn't even the complete phase 1. Or the complete Phase 1a. They basically seem to have reached to the point where the route linked the airport to the main train station and decided to call it a day. Someone on Wikipedia made a map that illustrates the original plans vs. what has actually been built. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Edinburgh_tramway_map.svg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Edinburgh_tramway_map...
        kagamine 11y ago
        Aha, thanks.
  - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
    Sure, and so do probably the US. There is no denying however that lines were lost after the war all over the world for different reasons. Austria currently has streetcars in Graz, Linz, Vienna, Gmunden and Innsbruck. The only lines that is growing are Linz? On the other hand we lost Baden, Dornbirn-Lustenau, Ebelsberg-St. Florian, Klagenfurt, Salzburg, St. Pölten, Unterach–See and Ybbs. Most of them to buses and cars.
hueving 11y ago
The article pointed out that the issue was because of the fare lock-ins, not because they were private. Do you realize how ridiculous 5 cents is, even for 1920? That's like 59 cents in todays buying power. Even the subsidized 285 Euro price you pay for a yearly pass could have afforded multiple rides nearly every day paying per ride at those rates.
- struppi 11y ago
  And you think the cities would have insisted in fare lock-ins, had they operated the street cars themselves?
  - hueving 11y ago
    They were stupid enough to do it to the companies, there is little reason to believe they wouldn't have caved to the same political pressure from constituents to keep the prices low if they were operating it.
ExpiredLink 11y ago
BTW, private car usage is heavily subsidized. Streets and parking lots are paid by the tax-payer in most countries around the world.

Animats 11y ago

San Francisco, of course, kept much of its streetcar system. It's still running and expanding. San Francisco even has trolley buses. They climb steep hills without problems, which is why they were originally installed.

jacobolus 11y ago
Much of it? Not even close. Here’s a map from 1914. Thin red lines are street cars: http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~214476~5501692 http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~21... These days we mostly have a combination of a few places connected to BART/Muni, and the rest handled by buses and trolleybuses, which are in general incredibly slow, because they get stuck in car traffic and make frequent long stops to load and unload passengers. There are a couple of cable cars, and one restored streetcar line, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Market_%26_Wharves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Market_%26_Wharves, but they’re mostly kept that way as tourist attractions and curiosities.
- ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
  The F gets used quite a bit by locals to commute.
ggreer 11y ago
The cable cars are purely a tourist attraction. Waiting times can exceed an hour, so nobody uses them to commute. The rest of SF Muni is a joke. Average fleet speed is 8mph and has been declining. On one Sunday workout, I outran an express line from its start to finish. Anyone on a bicycle can beat Muni in price, speed, and convenience. The situation would be comical if it didn't cost taxpayers $800 million per year.
brycemckinlay 11y ago
Toronto still has a fairly extensive streetcar network. A few former routes have been closed, but that's mostly because they were replaced by Subway lines. The Streetcar network was expanded as recently as the 1990s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_streetcar_system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_streetcar_system

stinos 11y ago

A friend of mine has a rather compelling theory that the principle of streetcars is going to make it's re-entry in the future, in a slightly different form though: self-driving cars which are shared in a on demand (cars owned by private or public companies)/carpool-like (private owners sharing their car) way. The self-driving aspect makes it a bit similar to a streetcar in that it should not deviate from the road, as does the on demand aspect: in it's glory days in city centers they were everywhere close to you at regular times so you'd never had to wait long before before one was available. Anyway, whether one finds it similar to streetcars or not, the most compelling about such system is that it would, together with a mentility change away from 'car is king', probably be able to get rid of a lot of traffic jams and more importantly all the problems they pose. Because it basically is a form of decentralized (must be good, right :P) public transport which is lacking now in most countries and cities: something which can get you from A to B at any time of the day or night without requiring walking/cycling to intermediate points where you then have to wait for your bus/train/.. to arrive.

scotty79 11y ago
> something which can get you from A to B at any time of the day or night without requiring walking/cycling to intermediate points where you then have to wait for your bus/train/.. to arrive. Taxi?!
- oblio 11y ago
  $$$
dalke 11y ago
There are a number of differences between what streetcars do and what you mention. The streetcars I'm most familiar with are directly connected to the power grid through overhead lines, and are on rails. Cars would need batteries as private cars won't have a pantograph, or fuel. In either case, there are more things that can break in a fleet of smaller vehicles, so maintenance is higher. Cars also use rubber wheels on pavement, rather than steel wheels on rails, so have higher rolling friction. Streetcars can also handle a high density of passengers. This is important for rush hour, when the load is high. A streetcar has about 3x the capacity of a similarly sized bus, which is in turn much higher than passenger vehicles. In turn, as the article points out, streetcars are best when they have dedicated right-of-way, which allows a higher throughput and predictable latency compared to cars, which are more subject to gridlock. Also, the improved capacity feeds back on itself when people build high-density (eg, 5 story buildings instead of single family houses) along streetcar corridors. The more recent streetcars are also better designed for a wide variety of users. For example, some of the ones I know have a platform which is only slightly above the curb level. This makes it easier for a parent pushing a stroller, or someone with difficulties walking, or on a wheelchair, to enter the streetcar unassisted. The same is not true of most cars. Finally, there are some environmental difference. A personal vehicle has the advantage of not sharing space with strangers. It has the disadvantage that you and your 9 friends can't all travel together. And a streetcar is usually a much smoother ride; a friend get nauseous after 10 minutes as a passenger in cars and buses, but not in streetcars. So while what your friend says is true, there are other factors which make it less compelling.

scotty79 11y ago

That's the funniest thing because that's a rare example of conspiracy theory that actually happened, succeeded and shaped cultural perception of trams and public transit in general in one large country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspi... You probably can't say that what they did was decisive as there were more factors in play but they tried in a covert way and prevented any chance of recovery. For a dense city having a streetcar is no-brainer. Whatever you pay for planning, building and maintaining light-rail and subsidizing its operation, it will pay for itself in increase in taxes collected from business growing thanks to offloading road network from whole lot of cars, lower traffic, cleaner air and lower necessary car ownership. All this clean electric car revolution with energy recovery, low number of moving parts and so on, that's happening now, for trams happened 50 or more years ago.

yvdriess 11y ago
Not to mention streetcars as a possible vehicle (no pun intended) for alternative power plants or fuel sources. Some of the arguments against alternatives for the internal combustion engine fall away if you do not have to deal with the needs that consumer cars have. Gyro power plant for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrobus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrobus Compressed air: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_motor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_motor
raverbashing 11y ago
> All this clean electric car revolution with energy recovery, low number of moving parts and so on, that's happening now, for trams happened 50 or more years ago. True. But the thing is that: it sucked You know that "lever up, tram goes, lever down it stops"? It was something like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiometer#Rheostat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiometer#Rheostat Sure, mass transit is good, electrical/hybrid ones even better, but as much as I hate mechanical ICEs, the electrical ones weren't much better. And mass transit can profit a lot from hybrid technologies
txru 11y ago
FWIW, the article disagrees with this reading of the conspiracy. > While it's true that National City continued ripping up lines and replacing them with buses — and that, long-term, GM benefited from the decline of mass transit — it's very hard to argue that National City killed the streetcar on its own. Streetcar systems went bankrupt and were dismantled in virtually every metro area in the United States, and National City was only involved in about 10 percent of cases.

evandijk70 11y ago

Street cars are still around here in the Netherlands. I don't like them for the reasons given in the article: They get stuck in traffic jams (even though they have the right of way). That makes them very slow during traffic hours, even slower than simply biking. A subway system, like the one they have in New York and in London, is superior in every way. They are building a new line in Amsterdam now, which will replace some of the street cars, and I can't wait for them to finish it.

scotty79 11y ago
The caveat with trams is that you need to plan for them. Slapping tram in the middle of the road to share it with cars won't do you that much good.
yvdriess 11y ago
It is rare for trams in Belgian cities to still drive on the road. Most have gotten a separate bedding. https://www.google.be/maps/@50.829617,4.434058,3a,75y,12.81h,73.54t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s8bDdcxNwZmZuE2DVhoBD4g!2e0!6m1!1e1 https://www.google.be/maps/@50.829617,4.434058,3a,75y,12.81h... https://www.google.be/maps/@50.826726,4.39792,3a,75y,247.36h,80.24t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sNVPO9xmTvUt2_wiCbPQX6g!2e0!6m1!1e1 https://www.google.be/maps/@50.826726,4.39792,3a,75y,247.36h...
bkor 11y ago
Streetcars work fine enough in Rotterdam. Is your experience limited to Amsterdam city centre? The metro live you speak of had been heavily delayed and way over budget. I prefer metro lines, but that's because I can more readily figure out where it's going and how.
Xylakant 11y ago
The situation is fairly interesting: In the old eastern part streetcars still exist, while they were dismantled in the old western parts. I notice that the streetcar fills an important role in the transport network: It's faster, more reliable and higher capacity than buses but still cheaper and with a more dense network than subway or light rail. It efficiently bridges the gap and provides access to to areas that are less well connected by the large lines. Reaching those areas in East Berlin is a breeze, reaching them in West Berlin a pain. Street cars usually don't share the roads though.

oblio 11y ago

I wonder how in Europe "streetcars" (actually "tramways", I don't think anyone here calls them "streetcars") remained popular. From what I've seen in the US the ones that still are running are relics and are mostly tourist attractions (such as San Francisco). Meanwhile in places like Berlin or Brussles they look like they're out of some SciFi movie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_Berlin#/media/File:Bombardier_Flexity_Berlin.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_Berlin#/media/File:Bom... http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brusselse_tram#/media/File:23_2elansiers.jpg http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brusselse_tram#/media/File:23_2...

stiGGG 11y ago
Tram or Straßenbahn (streettrain) is correct. I am from Berlin, if you remove public transit here, the city will collapse tomorrow. The old european cities weren't planned at the drawing board like the us. There are already way to much cars, it would be impossible to handle if everybody had one.
- waqf 11y ago
  To be fair, though, by the time of German reunification, most of the West Berlin trams had been removed just as in other Western European countries. (West Berlin still had public transport, notably the U-Bahn, but not trams specifically.) Unified Berlin then inherited a tram network from East Berlin which played well into the post-'90s renaissance of enthusiasm for trams and light rail.
bane 11y ago
The U.S. has similar systems in a few cities still. Austin, TX (of all places) has a heavy surface metro system that operates like a tram. [1] Portland, Oregon, largely considered to have one of the best public transit systems in the U.S. has a tram backbone. [2] The good news is that it looks like streetcars are trying to make a comeback. D.C. is reintroducing streetcar service [3] [4] and has a plan for city-wide service (about 60km worth) [5], a return the old normal [6] My understanding is that similar programs are getting kick-off across the U.S. as the long realization of how bad things are without them. [7] [8] [9] 1 - https://www.google.com/search?q=austin+metro&espv=2&biw=1527&bih=841&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=k7FMVfnDB8_isATzt4G4Ag&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw#tbm=isch&q=austin+metro+rail&revid=1287911562 https://www.google.com/search?q=austin+metro&espv=2&biw=1527... 2 - https://www.google.com/search?q=austin+metro&espv=2&biw=1527&bih=841&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=k7FMVfnDB8_isATzt4G4Ag&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw#tbm=isch&q=portland+trimet https://www.google.com/search?q=austin+metro&espv=2&biw=1527... 3 - https://www.google.com/search?q=u.s.+tram&espv=2&biw=1527&bih=841&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=crJMVcqTD42wsATXxYCgBg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw#tbm=isch&q=d.c.+streetcar https://www.google.com/search?q=u.s.+tram&espv=2&biw=1527&bi... 4 - http://www.dcstreetcar.com/ http://www.dcstreetcar.com/ 5 - http://www.dcstreetcar.com/projects/37-mile-streetcar-system/ http://www.dcstreetcar.com/projects/37-mile-streetcar-system... 6 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcars_in_Washington,_D.C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcars_in_Washington,_D.C. 7 - http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/50106 http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/50106 8 - http://www.forbes.com/pictures/emeh45iedd/los-angeles-streetcars-ready-to-return/ http://www.forbes.com/pictures/emeh45iedd/los-angeles-street... 9 - http://wnpr.org/post/return-american-streetcar http://wnpr.org/post/return-american-streetcar

peter303 11y ago

A version called light rail is returning. My city built 7 long lines for 4 billion dollars. Most of the lines shadow freeways.

ska 11y ago

Toronto is one of the rare North American cities that has both a functional metro and street cars with significant coverage. Not that both don't have their detractors, and the city (or rather the GTA, which includes a lot of commuter suburbs) can't make up it's mind about scaling them up or down. Having a transit backbone infrastructure like this changes the nature of a city, I think.

mml 11y ago

Here in Minneapolis, the streetcar was killed by the Duluth Bus Company (DuPont/GM). The governor lost his job when he got caught taking kickbacks from the below market sale of the steel from the lines, which was organized by Meyer Lansky & Isadore "Kid Kann" Blumenfeld. The MRTC was then taken over by the then president of Marquette bank, a one Carl Pohlad, who's offspring own the local MLB franchise. Many of the MRTC cars ran in Mexico City for many years, the rest were burned. There is one 1/4mi long museum line by lake Harriet remaining (worth a visit). Meyer & Blumenfeld retired together and ran real estate scams until they died in the early 80s. (Or so the story goes)