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We never debated Apple's right to defend their trademark, and it's pretty obvious they have the high ground on that one. What was frustrating to us was the she

We never debated Apple's right to defend their trademark, and it's pretty obvious they have the high ground on that one. What was frustrating to us was the sheer number of Apple employees who recommended our product time and time again, with Apple management well aware of our product and its name. With millions of downloads (many from Apple employees), we're frustrated because Apple recommended and encouraged us and then--six years later--decided it was time to litigate. Again, I'm not saying we're right. Apple is completely in the right to defend their mark, but I really don't think it it's in their best interest at all, and if we posed any serious threat, they would have taken action a long time ago. * Edit: Sorry if this post is sloppy. I haven't slept in a while.

dschobel 17y ago
Do you have any reason to believe they'll stop recommending your application after the name change? Just make a big landing page 'iPodRip is now known as iRip'. That way you can keep all of the search engine juice you accumulated with the former name. Pidgin (formerly gaim) survived a very similar situation to yours and the Pidgin homepage is still the top google result for 'gaim'.
- johndevor 17y ago
  You're right, they probably will continue to recommend it. The issue is the lawyers. They don't want us to have the domain at all, which is clearly where most of the value lies. And as Jobs doesn't care either way... there just seems to be a large disconnect between the decision makers at Apple (who don't care at all) and the law firm that represents them (the law firm is the 2nd largest in the world, with 2 billion in annual revenue).
  - dschobel 17y ago
    I would view this as a technical challenge to survive a domain name change because as you pointed out, the trademark aspect is pretty clear cut and Jobs isn't going to intercede. Talk to some SEO gurus because I'm certain there's a best practice for doing something like this. To go back to the Pidgin/Gaim example, it doesn't appear that they own any gaim related domain beside a way out of date sourceforge one and they still own all of the top spots for 'gaim'. edit: another idea, post an "ask HN" about it, I'd be curious to see what this crowd would come up with.
    - johndevor 17y ago
      Great idea! I'll make that post either tonight or tomorrow. We are speaking to some "SEO guys", but I'd like to get some opinions from some startup folk.
      - pyre 17y ago
        My suggestion would be to make the post generic so that the answers can benefit others, in addition to yourself, but this could be apparent (and I'm stating the obvious like an idiot).
  - anigbrowl 17y ago
    Have you asked if they'll give you a grace period during which you can redirect people to a new domain, and/or allow you to bid on search keywords for 'ipodrip', so as not to destroy the goodwill built up by you product? If not, perhaps you should lawyer up and negotiate an orderly transfer. an IP lawyer might propose to Apple that they buy the offending domain off you, or that if you transfer ownership they will maintain a redirect to your website for a set period of time. You are entitled to negotiate, since the letter you received from from Apple's lawyers, not from court whose decisions are final or limited to a narrow kind of appeal. IANAL, but this is basic common sense. In any case, you should be taking to an attorney to ensure that whatever action you do take protects you from future claims of liability.
  - gabrielroth 17y ago
    What makes you think he doesn't care either way? It seems pretty clear that he doesn't care about the costs you'll incur by changing your name, but I don't see any reason to think he doesn't care about you infringing on his company's trademark.
  - hristov 17y ago
    Try contacting your own trademark/domain name lawyers. There may actually be a way to keep the domain name. You should not believe everything lawyers that are adverse to you say.
  - haydenchambers 17y ago
    Initial Public Offering drip... that's what your domain means right? ;)
blehn 17y ago
I'm guessing the Apple employees who were recommending your product were neither executives nor part of the legal department. I wouldn't expect Joe Smith in customer service to be aware of Apple's trademark policies. Steve could have been more tactful, I suppose, but he at least took the time to respond, and gave you an honest, direct answer at that.
city41 17y ago
They have to protect their trademark, that's pretty much a given. But also, why take your case to Steve Jobs? He's not exactly known for being a "nice guy", his response is exactly what I would have expected from him. Sorry you guys have to go through this, but in the long run I doubt you'll see (too) much pain from this. Good luck.
- utexaspunk 17y ago
  It sounds to me almost as though you're supposed to feel so cool about getting such an informal e-mail from Steve personally that you just happily do what he wants. The guy's full of himself.
  - cmac 17y ago
    That's a lot of meaning to read into 10 words.
hristov 17y ago
Well, it is a big company and you cannot treat individual employees as speaking for the company. Different employees have different responsibilities and the ones you interacted with probably weren't the ones responsible for protecting Apple's trademarks.

dschobel 17y ago

Do you have any reason to believe they'll stop recommending your application after the name change? Just make a big landing page 'iPodRip is now known as iRip'. That way you can keep all of the search engine juice you accumulated with the former name. Pidgin (formerly gaim) survived a very similar situation to yours and the Pidgin homepage is still the top google result for 'gaim'.

johndevor 17y ago
You're right, they probably will continue to recommend it. The issue is the lawyers. They don't want us to have the domain at all, which is clearly where most of the value lies. And as Jobs doesn't care either way... there just seems to be a large disconnect between the decision makers at Apple (who don't care at all) and the law firm that represents them (the law firm is the 2nd largest in the world, with 2 billion in annual revenue).
- dschobel 17y ago
  I would view this as a technical challenge to survive a domain name change because as you pointed out, the trademark aspect is pretty clear cut and Jobs isn't going to intercede. Talk to some SEO gurus because I'm certain there's a best practice for doing something like this. To go back to the Pidgin/Gaim example, it doesn't appear that they own any gaim related domain beside a way out of date sourceforge one and they still own all of the top spots for 'gaim'. edit: another idea, post an "ask HN" about it, I'd be curious to see what this crowd would come up with.
  - johndevor 17y ago
    Great idea! I'll make that post either tonight or tomorrow. We are speaking to some "SEO guys", but I'd like to get some opinions from some startup folk.
    - pyre 17y ago
      My suggestion would be to make the post generic so that the answers can benefit others, in addition to yourself, but this could be apparent (and I'm stating the obvious like an idiot).
- anigbrowl 17y ago
  Have you asked if they'll give you a grace period during which you can redirect people to a new domain, and/or allow you to bid on search keywords for 'ipodrip', so as not to destroy the goodwill built up by you product? If not, perhaps you should lawyer up and negotiate an orderly transfer. an IP lawyer might propose to Apple that they buy the offending domain off you, or that if you transfer ownership they will maintain a redirect to your website for a set period of time. You are entitled to negotiate, since the letter you received from from Apple's lawyers, not from court whose decisions are final or limited to a narrow kind of appeal. IANAL, but this is basic common sense. In any case, you should be taking to an attorney to ensure that whatever action you do take protects you from future claims of liability.
- gabrielroth 17y ago
  What makes you think he doesn't care either way? It seems pretty clear that he doesn't care about the costs you'll incur by changing your name, but I don't see any reason to think he doesn't care about you infringing on his company's trademark.
- hristov 17y ago
  Try contacting your own trademark/domain name lawyers. There may actually be a way to keep the domain name. You should not believe everything lawyers that are adverse to you say.
- haydenchambers 17y ago
  Initial Public Offering drip... that's what your domain means right? ;)

blehn 17y ago

I'm guessing the Apple employees who were recommending your product were neither executives nor part of the legal department. I wouldn't expect Joe Smith in customer service to be aware of Apple's trademark policies. Steve could have been more tactful, I suppose, but he at least took the time to respond, and gave you an honest, direct answer at that.

city41 17y ago

They have to protect their trademark, that's pretty much a given. But also, why take your case to Steve Jobs? He's not exactly known for being a "nice guy", his response is exactly what I would have expected from him. Sorry you guys have to go through this, but in the long run I doubt you'll see (too) much pain from this. Good luck.

utexaspunk 17y ago
It sounds to me almost as though you're supposed to feel so cool about getting such an informal e-mail from Steve personally that you just happily do what he wants. The guy's full of himself.
- cmac 17y ago
  That's a lot of meaning to read into 10 words.

hristov 17y ago

Well, it is a big company and you cannot treat individual employees as speaking for the company. Different employees have different responsibilities and the ones you interacted with probably weren't the ones responsible for protecting Apple's trademarks.