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Just doing a shotgun application to a bunch of startups seems like a hilariously bad idea. But maybe I'm biased because I'm currently recovering from burnout fr

by mildbow 11y ago

Just doing a shotgun application to a bunch of startups seems like a hilariously bad idea. But maybe I'm biased because I'm currently recovering from burnout from working at a startup that I joined for the wrong reasons. There is only one reason to join a startup as an employee: you really really really believe in the mission and you reallyx3+ believe that the team can execute. Anything else and you aren't doing the team or yourself any favours. So, what are you really applying for? So you can have a "worked at a YC startup" on your resume: Just go work for google or facebook or amazon: you'll actually learn a tonne more about engineering/product dev at any of those places and they are a much better brandname for the rest of your career. Think you wont get into those companies? Spend a month preparing for the rigamarole that is a technical interview and you'll be fine. So you can get investor contact: Just apply to YC/techstars/500startups. Or email investors directly. Any of those options work better. You aren't getting any meaningful investor contact by being an employee. So you can learn how a startup works to start your own: Anyone who tells you this is deluded or conning you. There ain't nothing to it but to do it. The only way to learn how to do your startup is to do it. Nothing else comes close. Anything else is an excuse.

dragonwriter 11y ago
> There is only one reason to join a startup as an employee: you really really really believe in the mission and you reallyx3 believe that the team can execute. I'd say this is fairly reasonable. > So, what are you really applying for? For the opportunity to get in the funnel of startups using this system, so you can evaluate which ones have missions and teams you believe in and find one to work at. Presuming more than a few use this system, even if they don't use it exclusively, that's potentially a more efficient approach than research startups individually, finding ones you would want to work at, and then navigating their own individual hiring systems (and, to the extent you might miss some good startups that aren't using this system, there's no reason you can't also do that as well as the shotgun system.)
- mildbow 11y ago
  I'm going to assume your answer was "I want to have a semi-curated list of companies that are interested in me" In and of itself, that's not a bad list to have. BUT deciding on which one you want to work at for the next 3 years should be more of a "I want to work there" not "let's see which ones will have me". So if you really want to work at a YC startup then go over to http://yclist.com/ http://yclist.com/. Do some due diligence on who excites you ( not "which is the most exciting one that will have me") and apply to that one. Trust me. In the long run doing so will save you a lot more time. Joining an early stage startup isn't a job, it's a lifestyle.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > Joining an early stage startup isn't a job, it's a lifestyle. It absolutely is a job. The choice to pursue that kind of job is a lifestyle choice, sure, but no less so than the choice to prefer a job with a large corporation or similar institution (its a different lifestyle choice, of course, but its no more or less of one.)
    - mildbow 11y ago
      Sure, taken like that everything is alifestyle choice. My point, which I guess made poorly, is a startup will consume your life so don't just work for "a startup" driven by "startups are cool". Rather, do your due diligence.
derefr 11y ago
> There is only one reason to join a startup as an employee: you really really really believe in the mission and you reallyx3 believe that the team can execute. ...what if you really need the money (and never finished college, so no bigcorps are interested)?
- JoshTriplett 11y ago
  > ...what if you really need the money (and never finished college, so no bigcorps are interested)? Not every "bigcorp" is so short-sighted that they reject non-traditional candidates.
- mildbow 11y ago
  What do you mean "bigcorps aren't interested" ? Are you applying through the blackhole that is an online resume upload? Don't do that. Find someone in your network who works at one of these places and get them to forward your resume. Oh yeah, if you really need the money, maybe an early stage startup isn't the best idea :P
  - derefr 11y ago
    I was exaggerating a bit. Local bigcorps aren't interested (I live in Canada, and can't move for a variety of reasons.) I don't really have a network, though; I grew up on a farm and taught myself to program, and everything I've worked on so far has been either a remote contract (which usually ends up falling apart with refusal to pay for services rendered), or a startup (which usually ends up with my salary slashed to 1/8th industry standard under a "we're working for equity, right?" declaration.) Right now, my wildest dream is a programming job that simply allows me to work eight hours a day and pays for a 1br apartment and food. At this rate, I'm almost considering leaving the industry entirely and working in retail or something.
    - mildbow 11y ago
      I feel for you and understand that trying to recommend what you could/should do over the internet is hilariously arrogant/un-empathetic and everyones advice will converge to cookie-cutter ones like github profile/open source contributions blah blah. Unfortunately, most of the obvious advice is true. Since you don't have the "normal" credentials of college/past employement/referrals, you will need to put some time in building an alternate set. The good news is our field is an awesome one for credentialing yourself. If you don't feel like you have the stamina/drive for a open source projects etcs, how about competing on topcoder? Good luck.
Harj 11y ago
Working at a startup definitely isn't the right decision for everyone and I agree your reasons are the best ones to do so. We're specifically not taking a shotgun application approach here. We work with engineers to help them figure out five startups they're interested in for specific reasons to avoid a situation where they join a startup they wouldn't enjoy working at.
- danielvinson 11y ago
  Just telling people to choose 5 seems really flawed. You are both telling people that being interested in working at many different places is wrong, and telling them they need to choose 5 (because programmers are going to try to optimize). The obvious good solution would be to algorithmically recommend startups based on a quick survey. The better solution is to have somebody whose job it is to know all about every YC startup, their teams, culture, and needs spend 5 minutes with you and give a few good recommendations.
- mildbow 11y ago
  Maybe I'm reading too much into it but saying "working at a startup definitely isn't the right decision for everyone" sounds condescending. Anyway, my response was geared towards how this seems to promote working at "a startup". If you are trying to work at "a startup" you have already (probably) failed because you are getting pulled in by the romantic idea of what a startup is. Don't work at "a startup". Find a company with a mission and team you like and work there. FWIW, I do think your heart is in the right place: you aren't trying to capitalize of the romantic idea of a startup to hire a bunch of young and naive people :)
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

by mildbow 11y ago

dragonwriter 11y ago

> There is only one reason to join a startup as an employee: you really really really believe in the mission and you reallyx3 believe that the team can execute. I'd say this is fairly reasonable. > So, what are you really applying for? For the opportunity to get in the funnel of startups using this system, so you can evaluate which ones have missions and teams you believe in and find one to work at. Presuming more than a few use this system, even if they don't use it exclusively, that's potentially a more efficient approach than research startups individually, finding ones you would want to work at, and then navigating their own individual hiring systems (and, to the extent you might miss some good startups that aren't using this system, there's no reason you can't also do that as well as the shotgun system.)

mildbow 11y ago
I'm going to assume your answer was "I want to have a semi-curated list of companies that are interested in me" In and of itself, that's not a bad list to have. BUT deciding on which one you want to work at for the next 3 years should be more of a "I want to work there" not "let's see which ones will have me". So if you really want to work at a YC startup then go over to http://yclist.com/ http://yclist.com/. Do some due diligence on who excites you ( not "which is the most exciting one that will have me") and apply to that one. Trust me. In the long run doing so will save you a lot more time. Joining an early stage startup isn't a job, it's a lifestyle.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > Joining an early stage startup isn't a job, it's a lifestyle. It absolutely is a job. The choice to pursue that kind of job is a lifestyle choice, sure, but no less so than the choice to prefer a job with a large corporation or similar institution (its a different lifestyle choice, of course, but its no more or less of one.)
  - mildbow 11y ago
    Sure, taken like that everything is alifestyle choice. My point, which I guess made poorly, is a startup will consume your life so don't just work for "a startup" driven by "startups are cool". Rather, do your due diligence.

derefr 11y ago

> There is only one reason to join a startup as an employee: you really really really believe in the mission and you reallyx3 believe that the team can execute. ...what if you really need the money (and never finished college, so no bigcorps are interested)?

JoshTriplett 11y ago
> ...what if you really need the money (and never finished college, so no bigcorps are interested)? Not every "bigcorp" is so short-sighted that they reject non-traditional candidates.
mildbow 11y ago
What do you mean "bigcorps aren't interested" ? Are you applying through the blackhole that is an online resume upload? Don't do that. Find someone in your network who works at one of these places and get them to forward your resume. Oh yeah, if you really need the money, maybe an early stage startup isn't the best idea :P
- derefr 11y ago
  I was exaggerating a bit. Local bigcorps aren't interested (I live in Canada, and can't move for a variety of reasons.) I don't really have a network, though; I grew up on a farm and taught myself to program, and everything I've worked on so far has been either a remote contract (which usually ends up falling apart with refusal to pay for services rendered), or a startup (which usually ends up with my salary slashed to 1/8th industry standard under a "we're working for equity, right?" declaration.) Right now, my wildest dream is a programming job that simply allows me to work eight hours a day and pays for a 1br apartment and food. At this rate, I'm almost considering leaving the industry entirely and working in retail or something.
  - mildbow 11y ago
    I feel for you and understand that trying to recommend what you could/should do over the internet is hilariously arrogant/un-empathetic and everyones advice will converge to cookie-cutter ones like github profile/open source contributions blah blah. Unfortunately, most of the obvious advice is true. Since you don't have the "normal" credentials of college/past employement/referrals, you will need to put some time in building an alternate set. The good news is our field is an awesome one for credentialing yourself. If you don't feel like you have the stamina/drive for a open source projects etcs, how about competing on topcoder? Good luck.

Harj 11y ago

Working at a startup definitely isn't the right decision for everyone and I agree your reasons are the best ones to do so. We're specifically not taking a shotgun application approach here. We work with engineers to help them figure out five startups they're interested in for specific reasons to avoid a situation where they join a startup they wouldn't enjoy working at.

danielvinson 11y ago
Just telling people to choose 5 seems really flawed. You are both telling people that being interested in working at many different places is wrong, and telling them they need to choose 5 (because programmers are going to try to optimize). The obvious good solution would be to algorithmically recommend startups based on a quick survey. The better solution is to have somebody whose job it is to know all about every YC startup, their teams, culture, and needs spend 5 minutes with you and give a few good recommendations.
mildbow 11y ago
Maybe I'm reading too much into it but saying "working at a startup definitely isn't the right decision for everyone" sounds condescending. Anyway, my response was geared towards how this seems to promote working at "a startup". If you are trying to work at "a startup" you have already (probably) failed because you are getting pulled in by the romantic idea of what a startup is. Don't work at "a startup". Find a company with a mission and team you like and work there. FWIW, I do think your heart is in the right place: you aren't trying to capitalize of the romantic idea of a startup to hire a bunch of young and naive people :)

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]