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You may believe this. I may misunderstand you. But statements like this are one of the reasons people are reluctant to get help. My problem is bullshit. I'm we

by a3n 12y ago

You may believe this. I may misunderstand you. But statements like this are one of the reasons people are reluctant to get help. My problem is bullshit. I'm weak. What will people think? Regardless of whether the "reasons" or problems are real (to you) or imagined bullshit, people do kill themselves over it. Don't perpetuate an environment that discourages people from getting help. They're already not thinking rationally. Which do you think will produce more survivors and thrivers: "You're problems are probably bullshit." "You should talk to a professional." Let the professional decide if it's bullshit or not, and lead the person to the right treatment. EDIT: removed swearing.

coldtea 12y ago
>But statements like this are one of the reasons people are reluctant to get help. My problem is bullshit. I'm weak. What will people think? Regardless of whether the "reasons" or problems are real (to you) or imagined bullshit, people do kill themselves over it. How does that change what I wrote? Is it the "to you" qualifier? As if things can't be objectively BS as reasons to commit suicide? People kill themselves over all kinds of BS and not just by suicide. This includes nationalism, religion, and even as idiotic things as "dares". In fact Tim in the article even admits about his own situation being BS. And it didn't take some huge experience to make him see that, or treatment, or medication: just a phone call from his mother. Empathy is understanding that they feel really bad -- it doesn't mean justyfing the causes of that feeling too. If you want to help people you need to make them see the BS-ness of those things (e.g. a failing grade), not overdramatize them as legitimate life-ending situations for them out of misguided empathy.
- a3n 12y ago
  > just a phone call from his mother. Anecdote of one. Everyone is different. > you need to make them see the BS-ness of those things No, I don't need to make anyone see anything. And if they're anywhere near suicide, they don't need that message from me, they need professional help. Things are not rational, by definition, and they're dangerous. Don't fuck around with this, it's not a rationality petri dish or a debate.
- fsloth 12y ago
  "As if things can't be objectively BS as reasons to commit suicide?" You can't rationalize suicide attempts away. Just don't. Showing you care is good. Kindness is good. Any attempt at hard love or such is a recipe for disaster. Because there is a very good chance you can't tell whether a person is clinically depressed or not. It is very common that they mask this during work etc. and when they get home they just crumble. There are three ways out of this: the person gets better by themselves, they kill themselves or they get medical attention and get better. It is good to suggest medical attention. It is very bad to suggest anything that like that their feelings are due to bullshit reasons because depressed people can channel this into pure self loathing. It's a medical condition because you cannot rationalize it away. Do. Not. Tell. Them. That they are making bullshit reasons. That will be a pretty strong disincentive to go to seek medical attention. It will probably make themselves even worse off.
- 4ydx 12y ago
  Objectively "BS"? What does that even mean? You need to get a grip and stop your anger towards people who are feeling terrible. If you don't recognize the kind of imagery (the manly-man imagery) that is typically associated with your choice of words, please take a moment to reflect on it. You cannot say "I empathize with you. By the way your reasons for feeling this way are total BS" in the same breath and have any semblance of actual empathy. You feel yourself a clever wordsmith, I'm afraid, who packs a gun called "tough love".
  - coldtea 12y ago
    >Objectively "BS"? What does that even mean? It means that as far as things to commit suicide for go, a failing grade in some assignment or a rejection in high school, are not very important in the grand scheme of life. If someone attempts suicide over the loss of his family, it's more understandable than attempting suicide because you were rejected for The Voice. >You need to get a grip and stop your anger towards people who are feeling terrible. I'm not sure what you are projecting here. Qualifying something is not anger, and I'm not talking to people "who are feeling terrible", I'm talking to people on a HN thread. This is a discussion. It's not very polite to assume things and feelings for the other end. >You cannot say "I empathize with you. By the way your reasons for feeling this way are total BS" in the same breath and have any semblance of actual empathy. Yeah, because lots of people never took their friends aside (or vice versa) to try and help them overcome a dark patch, including suicidal thoughts and depression, by putting things in perspectove for them. So their version of empathy is "Don't bother me, go see a doctor and take your meds". This conversation is like it's taking place in a bizarro alternative universe, when all suicide is caused by tangible chemically induced depression (which is the only form of depression in that universe too), and people never overdramatize their circumstances. This might be an 21st century American thing, were individuals must absolutely remove any societal and personal causes for their situation. In these parts of Europe we find it OK for friends to help us see clearly what's trivial and what's not, and we had similar philosophies down to the time of Epicurus.
    - 4ydx 12y ago
      Whether or not somebodies sense of depression is triggered by something "trivial" or "stupid", it is likely genuinely causing them distress. Personally I wouldn't pull my friend aside and say, "Hey man you seem down, but the fact that you just broke up with your girlfriend is a total BS reason to be upset". Perhaps we are only differing in the way we like to describe the situation, but your language comes across as being unnecessarily "macho".
a3n 12y ago
Listen. To anyone reading this thread, and similar threads in the past and future. The discussion may be amusing to you, or perplexing, or frustrating. It may even be pulling you down. If you feel like you're going to harm yourself, call 911 right away, or whatever your local emergency number is. If you are having issues, get help. Ignore all this talk. Maybe you're depressed. Maybe you just think you're an asshole, because it's hard for people to be around you and hard for you to be around people. That's not natural, we're social animals. It's not "wrong," it's a symptom. Don't second guess yourself, don't overthink it, don't try to tough your way through, get help right away. If you have access to a doctor that's probably the easiest way to start. The doctor may treat you himself, or he may recommend some other treatment. The point of the initial visit is evaluation. They're trained to do this. If you don't have easy access to a doctor or other professional, don't give up. If you're working then your employer may have an Employee Assistance Program. They're free, and you can get a few initial visits with an appropriate professional. EAP usually offers lots of unrelated services, including legal advice, so don't hesitate to ask HR or whoever for the brochure or information, they won't know why you want it. You may have to go through your county's assistance resources, and that's potentially frustrating, but do it and be persistent. Get a friend or relative to help you navigate. Me: My car won't start. I need to get rid of it. Mechanic: Actually all we need to do is replace this solenoid. You should probably change the oil a little more often too. The car is actually pretty good. Me: Oh, good. I'm glad I asked a professional. I kind of like this car, and I'd like to keep it.

by a3n 12y ago

coldtea 12y ago

>But statements like this are one of the reasons people are reluctant to get help. My problem is bullshit. I'm weak. What will people think? Regardless of whether the "reasons" or problems are real (to you) or imagined bullshit, people do kill themselves over it. How does that change what I wrote? Is it the "to you" qualifier? As if things can't be objectively BS as reasons to commit suicide? People kill themselves over all kinds of BS and not just by suicide. This includes nationalism, religion, and even as idiotic things as "dares". In fact Tim in the article even admits about his own situation being BS. And it didn't take some huge experience to make him see that, or treatment, or medication: just a phone call from his mother. Empathy is understanding that they feel really bad -- it doesn't mean justyfing the causes of that feeling too. If you want to help people you need to make them see the BS-ness of those things (e.g. a failing grade), not overdramatize them as legitimate life-ending situations for them out of misguided empathy.

a3n 12y ago
> just a phone call from his mother. Anecdote of one. Everyone is different. > you need to make them see the BS-ness of those things No, I don't need to make anyone see anything. And if they're anywhere near suicide, they don't need that message from me, they need professional help. Things are not rational, by definition, and they're dangerous. Don't fuck around with this, it's not a rationality petri dish or a debate.
fsloth 12y ago
"As if things can't be objectively BS as reasons to commit suicide?" You can't rationalize suicide attempts away. Just don't. Showing you care is good. Kindness is good. Any attempt at hard love or such is a recipe for disaster. Because there is a very good chance you can't tell whether a person is clinically depressed or not. It is very common that they mask this during work etc. and when they get home they just crumble. There are three ways out of this: the person gets better by themselves, they kill themselves or they get medical attention and get better. It is good to suggest medical attention. It is very bad to suggest anything that like that their feelings are due to bullshit reasons because depressed people can channel this into pure self loathing. It's a medical condition because you cannot rationalize it away. Do. Not. Tell. Them. That they are making bullshit reasons. That will be a pretty strong disincentive to go to seek medical attention. It will probably make themselves even worse off.
4ydx 12y ago
Objectively "BS"? What does that even mean? You need to get a grip and stop your anger towards people who are feeling terrible. If you don't recognize the kind of imagery (the manly-man imagery) that is typically associated with your choice of words, please take a moment to reflect on it. You cannot say "I empathize with you. By the way your reasons for feeling this way are total BS" in the same breath and have any semblance of actual empathy. You feel yourself a clever wordsmith, I'm afraid, who packs a gun called "tough love".
- coldtea 12y ago
  >Objectively "BS"? What does that even mean? It means that as far as things to commit suicide for go, a failing grade in some assignment or a rejection in high school, are not very important in the grand scheme of life. If someone attempts suicide over the loss of his family, it's more understandable than attempting suicide because you were rejected for The Voice. >You need to get a grip and stop your anger towards people who are feeling terrible. I'm not sure what you are projecting here. Qualifying something is not anger, and I'm not talking to people "who are feeling terrible", I'm talking to people on a HN thread. This is a discussion. It's not very polite to assume things and feelings for the other end. >You cannot say "I empathize with you. By the way your reasons for feeling this way are total BS" in the same breath and have any semblance of actual empathy. Yeah, because lots of people never took their friends aside (or vice versa) to try and help them overcome a dark patch, including suicidal thoughts and depression, by putting things in perspectove for them. So their version of empathy is "Don't bother me, go see a doctor and take your meds". This conversation is like it's taking place in a bizarro alternative universe, when all suicide is caused by tangible chemically induced depression (which is the only form of depression in that universe too), and people never overdramatize their circumstances. This might be an 21st century American thing, were individuals must absolutely remove any societal and personal causes for their situation. In these parts of Europe we find it OK for friends to help us see clearly what's trivial and what's not, and we had similar philosophies down to the time of Epicurus.
  - 4ydx 12y ago
    Whether or not somebodies sense of depression is triggered by something "trivial" or "stupid", it is likely genuinely causing them distress. Personally I wouldn't pull my friend aside and say, "Hey man you seem down, but the fact that you just broke up with your girlfriend is a total BS reason to be upset". Perhaps we are only differing in the way we like to describe the situation, but your language comes across as being unnecessarily "macho".

a3n 12y ago

Listen. To anyone reading this thread, and similar threads in the past and future. The discussion may be amusing to you, or perplexing, or frustrating. It may even be pulling you down. If you feel like you're going to harm yourself, call 911 right away, or whatever your local emergency number is. If you are having issues, get help. Ignore all this talk. Maybe you're depressed. Maybe you just think you're an asshole, because it's hard for people to be around you and hard for you to be around people. That's not natural, we're social animals. It's not "wrong," it's a symptom. Don't second guess yourself, don't overthink it, don't try to tough your way through, get help right away. If you have access to a doctor that's probably the easiest way to start. The doctor may treat you himself, or he may recommend some other treatment. The point of the initial visit is evaluation. They're trained to do this. If you don't have easy access to a doctor or other professional, don't give up. If you're working then your employer may have an Employee Assistance Program. They're free, and you can get a few initial visits with an appropriate professional. EAP usually offers lots of unrelated services, including legal advice, so don't hesitate to ask HR or whoever for the brochure or information, they won't know why you want it. You may have to go through your county's assistance resources, and that's potentially frustrating, but do it and be persistent. Get a friend or relative to help you navigate. Me: My car won't start. I need to get rid of it. Mechanic: Actually all we need to do is replace this solenoid. You should probably change the oil a little more often too. The car is actually pretty good. Me: Oh, good. I'm glad I asked a professional. I kind of like this car, and I'd like to keep it.