4 ms·

I knew her--the days after her suicide were pretty surreal, because I always needed to ask my self if I had just been a little more hospitable or a little nicer

by gheiou 11y ago

I knew her--the days after her suicide were pretty surreal, because I always needed to ask my self if I had just been a little more hospitable or a little nicer that one time, could it have made a difference? How we act matters.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
tptacek 11y ago
How we act matters, but we are not as a rule inadvertently responsible for the serious medical conditions of others. Suicide isn't a disease of affection deficiency. It should help to know that reaching the state of being one smile away from suicide implies a profoundly severe illness; the problem wasn't smiles, it was the way we route the ill to the mental health resources they need.
- jules 11y ago
  In my view it's a harmful oversimplification that suicidal people are simply sick and need to get their mind fixed. I know it's not what you meant, but that's what reflexively rubbed me the wrong way about this comment because I have seen this attitude multiple times from other people who did mean that. One needs to consider that suicide is not just an affliction of the mind, it's also a product of the circumstances a normal person finds him or herself in. It's not just the thoughts that need fixing, it's the circumstances too. Usually this is a chicken and egg problem: the thoughts prevent the person from fixing the circumstances himself, and the circumstances reinforce negative thoughts. This way somebody can get sucked deeper and deeper into a black hole of increasingly irrational negative thoughts. Even if the thoughts are clearly irrational to an outsider, they are not to the person themselves. Therefore suggesting that they simply fix their mind does not help. In their view their mind is not just what needs to be fixed, it's also the circumstances. We all should do our best to not create such circumstances and to fix them when they exist. In the story of the OP for example, it's fair to say that the behaviour of the professor played a big role in almost causing his suicide. If suicide is caused by circumstances a normal person finds him or herself in, do we not bear a collective responsibility to prevent it, even if it's just a smile?
  - tptacek 11y ago
    No. If you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal impulses, you are experiencing a medical emergency. Please get professional help as soon as possible.
    - pen2l 11y ago
      "No."? Jules' thoughtful comment deserved better than that terse derision. And, the attitude of simplifying all of this to "get professional help asap" is not very productive. For one, not everyone can afford or access that kind of help. Two, pronto professional help can sometimes yield to bad choices very quickly. Blowing it up risks violating a depressed individual's privacy, they might see that as an action of offense. When a friend of mine was suicidal some odd years ago, I didn't just dial the phone for some professionals to get him, I tried to make it clear to him how much I valued his friendship and what it would do to me if he were to go away -- the guy is rocking life these days. Of course that's definitely not to say don't call for help, rather that this sort of thing demands a more considered response.
      - tptacek 11y ago
        I'm sorry that I can't say this any more clearly: suicidal depression, or intrusive and/or detailed suicidal planning or impulse, is a life-threatening medical emergency. People experiencing it require medical assistance. Please do not attempt to judge for yourself whether or how much assistance is needed. The national suicide hotline in the US is: 1 (800) 273-8255 Given no other modes of helping someone that will result in them obtaining medical help, and assuming that suicidal thoughts have reached a point where they are intrusive and there is evidence of planning or intent, a 911 call is not unreasonable (you can also drive someone to the hospital).
        throwaway459847 11y ago
        My opinion is that your attitude about this is too categorical. I have been in a position where I called a friend because I was frighteningly close to actually doing it. This is after many years of very aggressively pursuing professional mental help in therapy / outpatient settings (which all my close friends are aware of). If my friend had called 911 after I asked them not to, I would have considered it a betrayal. It would have set in motion a set of events that would cause extreme distress for me, and (I am fairly certain) not provided any greater relief than the years of medications and talk therapy I was already pursuing. And it would have breached the trust I feel in one of my closest friends in a way that I'm not sure could have been recovered. I believe this would have put me on a path towards having distance from my friends, and being more imperiled overall. If I couldn't trust my friend not to call 911, I never would have called them. Unless that national suicide hotline above promises absolute confidentiality and not involving authorities, I guarantee I will never call it. Everyone is different and I'm not giving any advice here. I'm just glad my friend didn't take the hard-line stance on this that you do.
- downandout 11y ago
  >It should help to know that reaching the state of being one smile away from suicide implies a profoundly severe illness That's a pretty harsh and unrealistic generalization. Not everyone who commits or wants to commit suicide is "profoundly mentally ill". If you woke up tomorrow and your bank account were empty and your family were gone, would you consider suicide? Alot of people would, and it's not because they formed a mental defect overnight. Terrible things happen every day that can make otherwise rational people believe suicide is their most viable option.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Consideration of suicide is not the same thing as intrusive or deliberate and systemic suicidal planning. If it's a friend, ask: are you thinking about suicide? Do you have any plans? What are you thinking of doing? If there are plans, and they are credible, seek immediate medical attention.
  - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
    > If you woke up tomorrow and your bank account were empty and your family were gone, would you consider suicide? Alot of people would, and it's not because they formed a mental defect overnight. Not overnight, but this event might trigger clinical depression which is a mental illness in which suicide might appear as a "viable" (sic!) option. Suicide is simply not the response of a healthy individual in the scenario you described. One would either fight, flight or freeze without willingly harm oneself.
    - SAI_Peregrinus 11y ago
      Suicide is the ultimate form of flight. It's running away from life itself. To a depressed person suicide isn't self-harm, it's a way to stop the pain. That's what makes it so dangerous. Because in reality it IS self harm, it's just that suicidal people can't truly understand that. And it's also true that it's an escape, and the pain stops when you're dead. The value system is distorted such that the loss of all positive feelings isn't weighed properly. Especially since depressed people tend to have far fewer positive feelings, and have a confirmation bias to be unable to remember those feelings existing.
hga 11y ago
Not necessarily. Because of cognitive distortions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion) it's entirely possible people smiled at this person and they didn't realize it, or accept it. That said, I've never seen any harm in being generally nice and hospitable, and it can do more than a little good.

by gheiou 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

tptacek 11y ago

How we act matters, but we are not as a rule inadvertently responsible for the serious medical conditions of others. Suicide isn't a disease of affection deficiency. It should help to know that reaching the state of being one smile away from suicide implies a profoundly severe illness; the problem wasn't smiles, it was the way we route the ill to the mental health resources they need.

jules 11y ago
In my view it's a harmful oversimplification that suicidal people are simply sick and need to get their mind fixed. I know it's not what you meant, but that's what reflexively rubbed me the wrong way about this comment because I have seen this attitude multiple times from other people who did mean that. One needs to consider that suicide is not just an affliction of the mind, it's also a product of the circumstances a normal person finds him or herself in. It's not just the thoughts that need fixing, it's the circumstances too. Usually this is a chicken and egg problem: the thoughts prevent the person from fixing the circumstances himself, and the circumstances reinforce negative thoughts. This way somebody can get sucked deeper and deeper into a black hole of increasingly irrational negative thoughts. Even if the thoughts are clearly irrational to an outsider, they are not to the person themselves. Therefore suggesting that they simply fix their mind does not help. In their view their mind is not just what needs to be fixed, it's also the circumstances. We all should do our best to not create such circumstances and to fix them when they exist. In the story of the OP for example, it's fair to say that the behaviour of the professor played a big role in almost causing his suicide. If suicide is caused by circumstances a normal person finds him or herself in, do we not bear a collective responsibility to prevent it, even if it's just a smile?
- tptacek 11y ago
  No. If you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal impulses, you are experiencing a medical emergency. Please get professional help as soon as possible.
  - pen2l 11y ago
    "No."? Jules' thoughtful comment deserved better than that terse derision. And, the attitude of simplifying all of this to "get professional help asap" is not very productive. For one, not everyone can afford or access that kind of help. Two, pronto professional help can sometimes yield to bad choices very quickly. Blowing it up risks violating a depressed individual's privacy, they might see that as an action of offense. When a friend of mine was suicidal some odd years ago, I didn't just dial the phone for some professionals to get him, I tried to make it clear to him how much I valued his friendship and what it would do to me if he were to go away -- the guy is rocking life these days. Of course that's definitely not to say don't call for help, rather that this sort of thing demands a more considered response.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      I'm sorry that I can't say this any more clearly: suicidal depression, or intrusive and/or detailed suicidal planning or impulse, is a life-threatening medical emergency. People experiencing it require medical assistance. Please do not attempt to judge for yourself whether or how much assistance is needed. The national suicide hotline in the US is: 1 (800) 273-8255 Given no other modes of helping someone that will result in them obtaining medical help, and assuming that suicidal thoughts have reached a point where they are intrusive and there is evidence of planning or intent, a 911 call is not unreasonable (you can also drive someone to the hospital).
      - throwaway459847 11y ago
        My opinion is that your attitude about this is too categorical. I have been in a position where I called a friend because I was frighteningly close to actually doing it. This is after many years of very aggressively pursuing professional mental help in therapy / outpatient settings (which all my close friends are aware of). If my friend had called 911 after I asked them not to, I would have considered it a betrayal. It would have set in motion a set of events that would cause extreme distress for me, and (I am fairly certain) not provided any greater relief than the years of medications and talk therapy I was already pursuing. And it would have breached the trust I feel in one of my closest friends in a way that I'm not sure could have been recovered. I believe this would have put me on a path towards having distance from my friends, and being more imperiled overall. If I couldn't trust my friend not to call 911, I never would have called them. Unless that national suicide hotline above promises absolute confidentiality and not involving authorities, I guarantee I will never call it. Everyone is different and I'm not giving any advice here. I'm just glad my friend didn't take the hard-line stance on this that you do.
downandout 11y ago
>It should help to know that reaching the state of being one smile away from suicide implies a profoundly severe illness That's a pretty harsh and unrealistic generalization. Not everyone who commits or wants to commit suicide is "profoundly mentally ill". If you woke up tomorrow and your bank account were empty and your family were gone, would you consider suicide? Alot of people would, and it's not because they formed a mental defect overnight. Terrible things happen every day that can make otherwise rational people believe suicide is their most viable option.
- tptacek 11y ago
  Consideration of suicide is not the same thing as intrusive or deliberate and systemic suicidal planning. If it's a friend, ask: are you thinking about suicide? Do you have any plans? What are you thinking of doing? If there are plans, and they are credible, seek immediate medical attention.
- stefantalpalaru 11y ago
  > If you woke up tomorrow and your bank account were empty and your family were gone, would you consider suicide? Alot of people would, and it's not because they formed a mental defect overnight. Not overnight, but this event might trigger clinical depression which is a mental illness in which suicide might appear as a "viable" (sic!) option. Suicide is simply not the response of a healthy individual in the scenario you described. One would either fight, flight or freeze without willingly harm oneself.
  - SAI_Peregrinus 11y ago
    Suicide is the ultimate form of flight. It's running away from life itself. To a depressed person suicide isn't self-harm, it's a way to stop the pain. That's what makes it so dangerous. Because in reality it IS self harm, it's just that suicidal people can't truly understand that. And it's also true that it's an escape, and the pain stops when you're dead. The value system is distorted such that the loss of all positive feelings isn't weighed properly. Especially since depressed people tend to have far fewer positive feelings, and have a confirmation bias to be unable to remember those feelings existing.

hga 11y ago

Not necessarily. Because of cognitive distortions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion) it's entirely possible people smiled at this person and they didn't realize it, or accept it. That said, I've never seen any harm in being generally nice and hospitable, and it can do more than a little good.