8 ms·

It should be a liberating thought - that you've got nothing to lose, go try something exciting like white water kayaking, hike the Pacific Crest Trail,

It should be a liberating thought - that you've got nothing to lose, go try something exciting like white water kayaking, hike the Pacific Crest Trail, sail across the ocean, challenge yourself at a sport, biking, swimming, climbing? take a safe amount of MDMA and go to a music festival? listen to some alan watts [1] try fresh cannabis [ideally from Washington/Colorado/California], and music [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtQf5kSHKhE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtQf5kSHKhE

csdrane 11y ago
When you're feeling suicidal good luck enjoying any of those.
- titanomachy 11y ago
  Not necessarily impossible. I've been completely "distracted" out of the depths of depression, at least temporarily. Depression is a cognitive feedback loop, sometimes a major change of scenery or activity can effectively disrupt it, if you can somehow bring yourself to do it.
- samatman 11y ago
  That's the beauty of MDMA actually: there's little that suicidal ideations can do in the face of a massive flood of serotonin. It's like an antidepressant that works within an hour and lasts for about three. It can lead to insight that produces lasting change. Please heed this last part: if you choose to treat suicidal urges in this way, tell someone what's going on so you can have support for the following week. The crash can be dangerous to someone in an unstable place.
  - marssaxman 11y ago
    I was not feeling suicidal when I first took MDMA but I had been struggling with depression for years, and the experience was a key step on the way out. It was such a clear demonstration of the degree to which my perception of the world around me, and my estimation of the beauty and worth to be found there, are driven by the chemical state of my brain. I had thought that I was depressed because I lived in a crappy world; that first MDMA experience showed me that I had causality backward, and that I thought the world was crappy because I was depressed. Insight that produces lasting change indeed.
    - lubesGordi 11y ago
      This is really a very important reason to do drugs in the first place, especially psychedelics. They show you how much of your reality/perception is based on a temporary chemical/biological state, not what you previously thought of as 'reality.' It also teaches you to 'ride it out' in the event of a bad trip (also a valuable experience). Ironically to some, doing drugs like this can make you more sane.
    - jotm 11y ago
      Care to share some? I can't get any, just like most people around the world.
DanBC 11y ago
From the article: > include wording like “impossible situation,” which was reflective of my thinking at the time, not objective reality. Distorted thinking tells you that the only way to escape the impossible situation is death. If distorted thinking told people to go whitewater rafting we wouldn't have 112 Americans dying by suicide each day. https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures
ChrisArgyle 11y ago
Major depression turns life into quicksand. It seems like anything you do makes it worse so you choose to do nothing. Eventually it gets unbearable and suicide starts creeping in.
michaelochurch 11y ago
I understand the sentiment but I disagree with it. I'd stay away from the drugs, except in a monitored therapeutic context (which is probably still illegal, but may be helpful). Depression can be secondary to anxiety, and drugs can cause panic attacks. A bad trip is essentially a panic attack boosted by persistent altered consciousness. I'm not anti-drug but there are people who shouldn't use them (I'm one of them; I don't even get drunk). Severe depression also makes it hard to do any of these things. But people don't usually commit suicide in the thick of a depression; they do it in the period of emotional volatility that tends to happen at the end of a depression. They're exhausted by having been depressed, but not depressed at the time of the event. Anyone who is having suicidal thoughts, even if he's pretty sure he'd never act on them, should see a professional first and foremost and get the depression and, if they exist, panic issues treated. Then taking up the sports (which aren't especially dangerous; even scuba diving is safer than inactivity per minute) is a great call. Developing a meditation discipline is also a great idea.
tptacek 11y ago
Also liberating in a similar sense: full-blown rabies, amoebic encephalitis, prion disease. Potentially fatal illnesses are medical emergencies, not mood shifts or errors in judgement.
- nosuchthing 11y ago
  Depression is an incredibly broad umbrella label for a mental condition that is nothing like rabies or traditional diseases. Depression is a state of mind, often (but not always) induced by circumstantial situations, financial, existential, diet, stagnation/exercise... the cause of Depression for many can be resolved, with effort - and it takes a significant amount of effort for someone with depression to do things as simple and necessary and normally enjoable as eating a meal or taking a shower. The point is, if you're going to do something as extreme as quit life, you might as well try to see if your depression may just be caused by a lack of exercise or "tunnel vision" of your perception of the world that could be drastically contrasted through experiencing therapeutic mild doses of MDMA [1][2] or cannabis or pharmaceuticals. [1] http://www.maps.org/ http://www.maps.org/ [2] http://boingboing.net/2015/05/05/crowdfunding-medical-mdma-and.html#more-385387 http://boingboing.net/2015/05/05/crowdfunding-medical-mdma-a...
  - tptacek 11y ago
    If you are experiencing suicidal thoughts to the point where those thoughts have become intrusive and difficult to dispel, and/or to the point where you've begun formulating a plan, please seek professional help as soon as possible. If you know someone in that situation, please do not recommend therapeutic mild doses of any drug; rather, calmly and urgently vector that person to professional medical help. Suicidal depression is a medical emergency.
    - ionised 11y ago
      You've used this term 'medical emergency' an immense number of times in this thread.
iliis 11y ago
Some guy on Reddit swore by playing a horror game (e.g. Amnesia: The dark descent) when he's feeling down. I tried it with mixed results, but it certainly is a powerful way of feeling something strong and different. Similarly for movies, there are some powerful ones too (for example from Studio Ghibli). But most importantly: Be with others. Family, friends, random guy in a bar, whatever. Even if it doesn't sound appealing (nothing does when you're depressed) just do it, talk to them. When you're going trough hell, don't stop walking.
pjc50 11y ago
Depressive brainstate will make you think that those are unreasonably hard to achieve, and cause them to be unrewarding (except the drugs) On a bad day people can find "go to shop and buy myself an icecream" an insurmountable challenge.
- Cantremeber 11y ago
  Can confirm. I got to the point where I stopped shower for multiple days because I thought it would take to long. I know that it should take twenty minutes top but in my mind my time estimate was closer to an hour. I literally did nothing but smoke weed and watch Netflix, nothing else was interesting enough for me to bother. That being said, avoid weed on depression, and find dissociatives. The third person perspective on your life they provide can be a life saver. Just be careful as you can get quite intoxicated by this effect.
lfuller 11y ago
If you're depressed to the point of considering suicide, those things aren't exciting. Nothing is.
- nosuchthing 11y ago
  The point is to seek out life, maybe you'll find something exciting if you try - rather than quit and throw all the untapped potentiality of your future away.
Riseed 11y ago
When my brain is functioning properly (according to third parties), this sounds like great advice, and I can even intend to head it next time I sink. However, once my brain was processing my every action as futile, I was often too depressed and incapacitated to shower, or even to get up and make food when I was hungry. In that state of mind, things like kayaking and hiking were functionally impossible. Music remained, but my brain retreated to the comfort of Radiohead's "Street Spirit" or "Creep" (etc). My point is that it's almost like being a different person. Reality is persecution, logic is warped, and intentions from good days do not always carry over. I was fortunate to have understanding and patient friends who helped me work on this during my good days. Kayaking is still unobtainable, but now I am able to turn to, e.g., "Katamari on the Rocks"[0] for music, and Alan Watts as well. The Zen Habits reminder to breathe [1] is a permanently open tab in my "distractions" group. As the quote from Infinite Jest says[2], the flames become terrifying. I can only speak for my own terror, but the help and support I've received have made it easier to face and combat. Long talks with friends, smiles from strangers... it has all been important. Thank you. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsB3IfttE50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsB3IfttE50 [1] http://zenhabits.net/more/ http://zenhabits.net/more/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9501234 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9501234
kzhahou 11y ago
I know you mean well, but this is classic terrible advice, based on an incorrect understanding of depression. It's not boredom (cured by white water kayaking). It's not a lack of endorphins (stimulated by biking, etc). It's not stress (-> cannabis). It's not that one just forgot that there's good things in life, and some Alan Watts will snap you out of it.
- nosuchthing 11y ago
  Stagnation, lack of exercise, and lots of oily/sugar/processed foods - all have a direct impact on everyone's baseline well being. Cutting out fast food / snacks / soda (substitute fizzy mineral water), and making the effort to do fresh stir fry veggies with some ginger, spice, and coconut oil has been life changing. I no longer feel tired all the time, or get drowsiness after I eat. ' Going for a hike, or cautiously ingesting a small amount of cannabis has done as more to reinvigorate life and eradicate dismal states of despair and bleakness as I could ever imagine.
  - kzhahou 11y ago
    These are all wonderful things, truly. Highly recommended. But they're of little use to someone with severe depression planning out their suicide. In fact, "empowerment" can trigger the opposite reaction: it emboldens the person to finally carry out their plans. For this reason, activities that would usually be good signs (e.g., someone starts hitting the gym vigorously after starting new meds) can in fact be warning signs that another suicide attempt is on the horizon.
a_c_s 11y ago
You seem to be thinking about having "nothing to lose" as being like having a magical credit card that you never have to pay back. Since it never has to be paid back, one is now "free" to buy whatever they want. This could indeed be a liberating experience. However, depression can manifest in feeling like the only thing that is available for purchase is nothingness. If you "know" that whatever you buy will turn out to be an box full of nothingness then having a magical credit card isn't very exciting.

csdrane 11y ago

When you're feeling suicidal good luck enjoying any of those.

titanomachy 11y ago
Not necessarily impossible. I've been completely "distracted" out of the depths of depression, at least temporarily. Depression is a cognitive feedback loop, sometimes a major change of scenery or activity can effectively disrupt it, if you can somehow bring yourself to do it.
samatman 11y ago
That's the beauty of MDMA actually: there's little that suicidal ideations can do in the face of a massive flood of serotonin. It's like an antidepressant that works within an hour and lasts for about three. It can lead to insight that produces lasting change. Please heed this last part: if you choose to treat suicidal urges in this way, tell someone what's going on so you can have support for the following week. The crash can be dangerous to someone in an unstable place.
- marssaxman 11y ago
  I was not feeling suicidal when I first took MDMA but I had been struggling with depression for years, and the experience was a key step on the way out. It was such a clear demonstration of the degree to which my perception of the world around me, and my estimation of the beauty and worth to be found there, are driven by the chemical state of my brain. I had thought that I was depressed because I lived in a crappy world; that first MDMA experience showed me that I had causality backward, and that I thought the world was crappy because I was depressed. Insight that produces lasting change indeed.
  - lubesGordi 11y ago
    This is really a very important reason to do drugs in the first place, especially psychedelics. They show you how much of your reality/perception is based on a temporary chemical/biological state, not what you previously thought of as 'reality.' It also teaches you to 'ride it out' in the event of a bad trip (also a valuable experience). Ironically to some, doing drugs like this can make you more sane.
  - jotm 11y ago
    Care to share some? I can't get any, just like most people around the world.

DanBC 11y ago

From the article: > include wording like “impossible situation,” which was reflective of my thinking at the time, not objective reality. Distorted thinking tells you that the only way to escape the impossible situation is death. If distorted thinking told people to go whitewater rafting we wouldn't have 112 Americans dying by suicide each day. https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures

ChrisArgyle 11y ago

Major depression turns life into quicksand. It seems like anything you do makes it worse so you choose to do nothing. Eventually it gets unbearable and suicide starts creeping in.

michaelochurch 11y ago

I understand the sentiment but I disagree with it. I'd stay away from the drugs, except in a monitored therapeutic context (which is probably still illegal, but may be helpful). Depression can be secondary to anxiety, and drugs can cause panic attacks. A bad trip is essentially a panic attack boosted by persistent altered consciousness. I'm not anti-drug but there are people who shouldn't use them (I'm one of them; I don't even get drunk). Severe depression also makes it hard to do any of these things. But people don't usually commit suicide in the thick of a depression; they do it in the period of emotional volatility that tends to happen at the end of a depression. They're exhausted by having been depressed, but not depressed at the time of the event. Anyone who is having suicidal thoughts, even if he's pretty sure he'd never act on them, should see a professional first and foremost and get the depression and, if they exist, panic issues treated. Then taking up the sports (which aren't especially dangerous; even scuba diving is safer than inactivity per minute) is a great call. Developing a meditation discipline is also a great idea.

tptacek 11y ago

Also liberating in a similar sense: full-blown rabies, amoebic encephalitis, prion disease. Potentially fatal illnesses are medical emergencies, not mood shifts or errors in judgement.

nosuchthing 11y ago
Depression is an incredibly broad umbrella label for a mental condition that is nothing like rabies or traditional diseases. Depression is a state of mind, often (but not always) induced by circumstantial situations, financial, existential, diet, stagnation/exercise... the cause of Depression for many can be resolved, with effort - and it takes a significant amount of effort for someone with depression to do things as simple and necessary and normally enjoable as eating a meal or taking a shower. The point is, if you're going to do something as extreme as quit life, you might as well try to see if your depression may just be caused by a lack of exercise or "tunnel vision" of your perception of the world that could be drastically contrasted through experiencing therapeutic mild doses of MDMA [1][2] or cannabis or pharmaceuticals. [1] http://www.maps.org/ http://www.maps.org/ [2] http://boingboing.net/2015/05/05/crowdfunding-medical-mdma-and.html#more-385387 http://boingboing.net/2015/05/05/crowdfunding-medical-mdma-a...
- tptacek 11y ago
  If you are experiencing suicidal thoughts to the point where those thoughts have become intrusive and difficult to dispel, and/or to the point where you've begun formulating a plan, please seek professional help as soon as possible. If you know someone in that situation, please do not recommend therapeutic mild doses of any drug; rather, calmly and urgently vector that person to professional medical help. Suicidal depression is a medical emergency.
  - ionised 11y ago
    You've used this term 'medical emergency' an immense number of times in this thread.

iliis 11y ago

Some guy on Reddit swore by playing a horror game (e.g. Amnesia: The dark descent) when he's feeling down. I tried it with mixed results, but it certainly is a powerful way of feeling something strong and different. Similarly for movies, there are some powerful ones too (for example from Studio Ghibli). But most importantly: Be with others. Family, friends, random guy in a bar, whatever. Even if it doesn't sound appealing (nothing does when you're depressed) just do it, talk to them. When you're going trough hell, don't stop walking.

pjc50 11y ago

Depressive brainstate will make you think that those are unreasonably hard to achieve, and cause them to be unrewarding (except the drugs) On a bad day people can find "go to shop and buy myself an icecream" an insurmountable challenge.

Cantremeber 11y ago
Can confirm. I got to the point where I stopped shower for multiple days because I thought it would take to long. I know that it should take twenty minutes top but in my mind my time estimate was closer to an hour. I literally did nothing but smoke weed and watch Netflix, nothing else was interesting enough for me to bother. That being said, avoid weed on depression, and find dissociatives. The third person perspective on your life they provide can be a life saver. Just be careful as you can get quite intoxicated by this effect.

lfuller 11y ago

If you're depressed to the point of considering suicide, those things aren't exciting. Nothing is.

nosuchthing 11y ago
The point is to seek out life, maybe you'll find something exciting if you try - rather than quit and throw all the untapped potentiality of your future away.

Riseed 11y ago

When my brain is functioning properly (according to third parties), this sounds like great advice, and I can even intend to head it next time I sink. However, once my brain was processing my every action as futile, I was often too depressed and incapacitated to shower, or even to get up and make food when I was hungry. In that state of mind, things like kayaking and hiking were functionally impossible. Music remained, but my brain retreated to the comfort of Radiohead's "Street Spirit" or "Creep" (etc). My point is that it's almost like being a different person. Reality is persecution, logic is warped, and intentions from good days do not always carry over. I was fortunate to have understanding and patient friends who helped me work on this during my good days. Kayaking is still unobtainable, but now I am able to turn to, e.g., "Katamari on the Rocks"[0] for music, and Alan Watts as well. The Zen Habits reminder to breathe [1] is a permanently open tab in my "distractions" group. As the quote from Infinite Jest says[2], the flames become terrifying. I can only speak for my own terror, but the help and support I've received have made it easier to face and combat. Long talks with friends, smiles from strangers... it has all been important. Thank you. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsB3IfttE50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsB3IfttE50 [1] http://zenhabits.net/more/ http://zenhabits.net/more/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9501234 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9501234

kzhahou 11y ago

I know you mean well, but this is classic terrible advice, based on an incorrect understanding of depression. It's not boredom (cured by white water kayaking). It's not a lack of endorphins (stimulated by biking, etc). It's not stress (-> cannabis). It's not that one just forgot that there's good things in life, and some Alan Watts will snap you out of it.

nosuchthing 11y ago
Stagnation, lack of exercise, and lots of oily/sugar/processed foods - all have a direct impact on everyone's baseline well being. Cutting out fast food / snacks / soda (substitute fizzy mineral water), and making the effort to do fresh stir fry veggies with some ginger, spice, and coconut oil has been life changing. I no longer feel tired all the time, or get drowsiness after I eat. ' Going for a hike, or cautiously ingesting a small amount of cannabis has done as more to reinvigorate life and eradicate dismal states of despair and bleakness as I could ever imagine.
- kzhahou 11y ago
  These are all wonderful things, truly. Highly recommended. But they're of little use to someone with severe depression planning out their suicide. In fact, "empowerment" can trigger the opposite reaction: it emboldens the person to finally carry out their plans. For this reason, activities that would usually be good signs (e.g., someone starts hitting the gym vigorously after starting new meds) can in fact be warning signs that another suicide attempt is on the horizon.

a_c_s 11y ago

You seem to be thinking about having "nothing to lose" as being like having a magical credit card that you never have to pay back. Since it never has to be paid back, one is now "free" to buy whatever they want. This could indeed be a liberating experience. However, depression can manifest in feeling like the only thing that is available for purchase is nothingness. If you "know" that whatever you buy will turn out to be an box full of nothingness then having a magical credit card isn't very exciting.