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Or, you know, don't use Uber. I get that you had a bad experience, but the response to every bad experience should not be regulation. "Surge pricing" is no mor

Or, you know, don't use Uber. I get that you had a bad experience, but the response to every bad experience should not be regulation. "Surge pricing" is no more a scam than any other market-based pricing mechanism. To be clear, I'm mixed on Uber overall, and I do think they need some regulation, but not with regard to pricing, coverage, or response time. Those are good fits for self-regulating markets. I'm more concerned with things like knowing that when I get in to an Uber, I'm covered by the proper insurance if I end up in an accident on the way to my destination.

chimeracoder 11y ago
> "Surge pricing" is no more a scam than any other market-based pricing mechanism. Surge pricing on an unknown fare (metered) is actually quite ridiculous. For contrast, when I order a Lyft line in Manhattan, it gives me an exact price quote (not an estimate, but the exact quote) before I order the ride, taking all surges into account. This means I have perfect knowledge of what the price is going to be before I decide whether to take the ride[0]. Uber has consistently refused to implement price quotes, to the point where they have literally jeopardized their existence in at least one city because of it: all of the legal problems they have in London would be avoided if they provided price quotes in advance. Uber has been really clever to frame the controversy as a debate about whether the cabbies should have to take an exam. But the fact that medallion cabs in London have to take the street exam is all moot, because if Uber provided price quotes in advance, they would be classified as a different kind of car service which doesn't have to take the street exam in the first place. Instead, Uber would rather launch a coordinated PR and legal campaign against the entire medallion cab system in London, just to avoid implementing an incredibly user-friendly feature. [0] This feature may not be in all locations yet (in fact, I don't know if it even works if the destination is in another borough), but it's clear to me that this is at least where Lyft is headed, whereas it's clear that Uber is committed to not providing price quotes.
- mirashii 11y ago
  > but it's clear to me that this is at least where Lyft is headed The opposite is actually clear to me. Lyft in SF previously had the functionality you describe Uber in Manhattan having. You put your destination in, it gives you an exact price, you decide whether to call it. When Lyft Line (the carpooling variant) was introduced, that feature was actually removed, and now with a standard Lyft ride there is no way to know your fare in advance (though there is now with Lyft Line). In a similar vain, Uber gives a max fare on Uber Pool (so you know at most what it will cost, guaranteed). Uber also does do fare estimates on UberX and other rides. I've heard from a few drivers that they may have avoided giving exact fares in advance on UberX and others because people tend to want to use them a little bit more flexibly than get from point a to b (Stop and pick up a friend on the way, for instance). Point of all of this being, it's not clear to me that either company is committed to providing or not providing price quotes. I think we're still in the early stages of experimentation, with features being added and removed and changed between locations all the time, and I don't think we can yet characterize what either company is committed to doing or not.
  - chimeracoder 11y ago
    > Point of all of this being, it's not clear to me that either company is committed to providing or not providing price quotes. Point taken. I'm willing to believe that Lyft may not be committed to providing price quotes. But there's at least ambiguity there, whereas it's very clear that Uber does not want to provide exact quotes. If they did, they would have in London and avoided the expensive, multi-year legal and PR battle that they're engaged in there. How much do you think this protracted battle has cost them over the years, both explicitly (PR firms and lawyers) and implicitly (opportunity cost of lost revenues from additional rides)? Whatever it is, it's a high number, and Uber has decided that not providing price quotes is worth even more[0]. > Uber also does do fare estimates on UberX and other rides. An estimate is simply lead-generation for them, not a quote. They are not committing to charge me the price they estimate. As the consumer, I still do not know what the ride will actually cost until I am already on the hook to pay for it. [0] It's not even a tough actuarial problem to solve at Uber's scale, which is why it's such a glaring omission, in addition to the example from London.
discardorama 11y ago
> I do think they need some regulation, but not with regard to pricing, Would you rather have a service which charges more to (say) black passengers than white? Or which charges more to go to a poorer part of town a rich part? The regulation I'm talking about is not being able to discriminate based on the type of passenger or destination.
- bradleyland 11y ago
  That wasn't clear from your original post. You're also being disingenuous in your argument. No, of course I do not support discrimination on the basis of race or economic class. Race is not equivalent to "type of passenger or destination" though. The latter is a much more vague definition. Like it or not, things like distance, roadway accessibility, and desired route impact the cost of a fare, and regulating that away isn't something I openly accept as the best solution.
  - JohnTHaller 11y ago
    The thing is, there is a huge correlation between race and destination in nearly all major cities. Drivers tend not to want to travel to outer/poorer areas because (1) they are less safe, (2) there are more minorities, (3) they are less likely to be able to pick up a fare for a return trip. So, cabbies used to discriminate based on destination. And, because these destinations correlate with race so well, they'd discriminate based on race as well. So, NYC and other cities have outlawed a taxi driver's ability to discriminate based on destination. Companies like Uber, however, discriminate based on destination and, thus, race.
    - discardorama 11y ago
      > The thing is, there is a huge correlation between race and destination in nearly all major cities. Exactly. You're at a bar in SF near closing time (2AM) and need a ride to Hunters Point or Bayview? Suddenly, "surge pricing" is in effect! However, if you need a ride to Pac Heights or the Marina? No problem! This may not seem like discrimination based on economic class/race, but it sure is.
foobarqux 11y ago
Surge pricing is not competitive-market based pricing. Uber is a price setter.
- tracker1 11y ago
  If someone isn't willing to sell to you for the price you are wanting to buy at, you have to offer more, or go without... that's how surge pricing works. Just as the opposite works, if nobody is going to buy at your price, you have to come down, or you will lose business... ideally you will meet in the middle via market pricing. The rates are centered around competition with other sources for similar services. There is competition and market driven pricing, I don't see the problem.

chimeracoder 11y ago

> "Surge pricing" is no more a scam than any other market-based pricing mechanism. Surge pricing on an unknown fare (metered) is actually quite ridiculous. For contrast, when I order a Lyft line in Manhattan, it gives me an exact price quote (not an estimate, but the exact quote) before I order the ride, taking all surges into account. This means I have perfect knowledge of what the price is going to be before I decide whether to take the ride[0]. Uber has consistently refused to implement price quotes, to the point where they have literally jeopardized their existence in at least one city because of it: all of the legal problems they have in London would be avoided if they provided price quotes in advance. Uber has been really clever to frame the controversy as a debate about whether the cabbies should have to take an exam. But the fact that medallion cabs in London have to take the street exam is all moot, because if Uber provided price quotes in advance, they would be classified as a different kind of car service which doesn't have to take the street exam in the first place. Instead, Uber would rather launch a coordinated PR and legal campaign against the entire medallion cab system in London, just to avoid implementing an incredibly user-friendly feature. [0] This feature may not be in all locations yet (in fact, I don't know if it even works if the destination is in another borough), but it's clear to me that this is at least where Lyft is headed, whereas it's clear that Uber is committed to not providing price quotes.

mirashii 11y ago
> but it's clear to me that this is at least where Lyft is headed The opposite is actually clear to me. Lyft in SF previously had the functionality you describe Uber in Manhattan having. You put your destination in, it gives you an exact price, you decide whether to call it. When Lyft Line (the carpooling variant) was introduced, that feature was actually removed, and now with a standard Lyft ride there is no way to know your fare in advance (though there is now with Lyft Line). In a similar vain, Uber gives a max fare on Uber Pool (so you know at most what it will cost, guaranteed). Uber also does do fare estimates on UberX and other rides. I've heard from a few drivers that they may have avoided giving exact fares in advance on UberX and others because people tend to want to use them a little bit more flexibly than get from point a to b (Stop and pick up a friend on the way, for instance). Point of all of this being, it's not clear to me that either company is committed to providing or not providing price quotes. I think we're still in the early stages of experimentation, with features being added and removed and changed between locations all the time, and I don't think we can yet characterize what either company is committed to doing or not.
- chimeracoder 11y ago
  > Point of all of this being, it's not clear to me that either company is committed to providing or not providing price quotes. Point taken. I'm willing to believe that Lyft may not be committed to providing price quotes. But there's at least ambiguity there, whereas it's very clear that Uber does not want to provide exact quotes. If they did, they would have in London and avoided the expensive, multi-year legal and PR battle that they're engaged in there. How much do you think this protracted battle has cost them over the years, both explicitly (PR firms and lawyers) and implicitly (opportunity cost of lost revenues from additional rides)? Whatever it is, it's a high number, and Uber has decided that not providing price quotes is worth even more[0]. > Uber also does do fare estimates on UberX and other rides. An estimate is simply lead-generation for them, not a quote. They are not committing to charge me the price they estimate. As the consumer, I still do not know what the ride will actually cost until I am already on the hook to pay for it. [0] It's not even a tough actuarial problem to solve at Uber's scale, which is why it's such a glaring omission, in addition to the example from London.

discardorama 11y ago

> I do think they need some regulation, but not with regard to pricing, Would you rather have a service which charges more to (say) black passengers than white? Or which charges more to go to a poorer part of town a rich part? The regulation I'm talking about is not being able to discriminate based on the type of passenger or destination.

bradleyland 11y ago
That wasn't clear from your original post. You're also being disingenuous in your argument. No, of course I do not support discrimination on the basis of race or economic class. Race is not equivalent to "type of passenger or destination" though. The latter is a much more vague definition. Like it or not, things like distance, roadway accessibility, and desired route impact the cost of a fare, and regulating that away isn't something I openly accept as the best solution.
- JohnTHaller 11y ago
  The thing is, there is a huge correlation between race and destination in nearly all major cities. Drivers tend not to want to travel to outer/poorer areas because (1) they are less safe, (2) there are more minorities, (3) they are less likely to be able to pick up a fare for a return trip. So, cabbies used to discriminate based on destination. And, because these destinations correlate with race so well, they'd discriminate based on race as well. So, NYC and other cities have outlawed a taxi driver's ability to discriminate based on destination. Companies like Uber, however, discriminate based on destination and, thus, race.
  - discardorama 11y ago
    > The thing is, there is a huge correlation between race and destination in nearly all major cities. Exactly. You're at a bar in SF near closing time (2AM) and need a ride to Hunters Point or Bayview? Suddenly, "surge pricing" is in effect! However, if you need a ride to Pac Heights or the Marina? No problem! This may not seem like discrimination based on economic class/race, but it sure is.

foobarqux 11y ago

Surge pricing is not competitive-market based pricing. Uber is a price setter.

tracker1 11y ago
If someone isn't willing to sell to you for the price you are wanting to buy at, you have to offer more, or go without... that's how surge pricing works. Just as the opposite works, if nobody is going to buy at your price, you have to come down, or you will lose business... ideally you will meet in the middle via market pricing. The rates are centered around competition with other sources for similar services. There is competition and market driven pricing, I don't see the problem.