5 ms·

It is absolutely unreasonable. When you say it "works out more often than not" I would ask "For whom?" Many snap judgments based on race lead to the death of un

by kaa2102 11y ago

It is absolutely unreasonable. When you say it "works out more often than not" I would ask "For whom?" Many snap judgments based on race lead to the death of unarmed black men and women. Studies have shown that resumes with black-sounding names get fewer callbacks and we treat black men like white men with a criminal record. Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal? http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 Norton Pscyhology: Devah Pager and Dalton Conley discuss racism and the stigma of criminal record https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CofLE3q3Qh0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CofLE3q3Qh0

the8472 11y ago
You are conflating the observation that a person who has a name predominantly used by african-americans is most likely african-american with further, discriminating, acts based on that observation.
- nickbauman 11y ago
  Much more succinct than how I said it.
- kaa2102 11y ago
  "We are blind to our blindness." Where do the generalizations stop?
  - the8472 11y ago
    As others have mentioned, we generalize all the time. We have to. No single stone is like the other, and yet we we talk about stones and pebbles like they were some uniform set of platonic ideals and some sharp boundary separating one from the other. We lack both knowledge about each individual and the capacity to hold all detailed information of all individuals in our heads to not shove them into categories. Of course once you know someone better you slice them into finer categories ("polite person", "work-a-holic", ...) and thus add facets and tidits to your model of that other person. But that in itself is a continuum from broad categories to unique bits of information about a person. If you're walking down a street at night in a city with a high crime rate and a group of tattooed, muscular youths comes around a corner then you're likely not going to treat them as individuals. You will at least consider crossing the street because you categorize them as potential threat. Even if that particular group of youths is no threat, it's still a matter of probabilities they might be and avoiding them seems a reasonable risk-avoidance strategy because it costs you little. You simply don't have the time or necessary information to treat them as individuals. So as long as your generalizations are statistically sound (instead of outdated stereotypes) they are useful and should only stop once better information becomes available.
    - yodsanklai 11y ago
      > So as long as your generalizations are statistically sound (instead of outdated stereotypes) they are useful and should only stop once better information becomes available. I agree with that. However, in certain cases, it's called discrimination and it's illegal.
contergan 11y ago
>Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal? That's impossible to say on an individual level, but it is very likely. If you phrase the question differently, there's a pretty clear answer: >On average, are two white people more employable than two black people? Without knowing any further info about the possible candidates - Yes. Looking at education statistics in the US, it becomes clear pretty quickly, that the average white person has a higher education level, than the average black person for example. That's a pretty important factor to look for as an employer. I'm sure statistics on work experience will look similar. And of course this is quite racist, but as long as different races exist, that really just means taking reality into account. Pretending there are no differences between different population groups is insane and counterproductive.
- shabda 11y ago
  > On average, are two white people more employable than two black people? Instead of above, the question you need to ask is "On average, are two white people who are applying to your job more employable than two black people who are applying to your job ? I don't believe the answer is yes. A person who has overcome the statistics you quote has the same ability and employability regardless of race.
  - carussell 11y ago
    > Instead of above, the question you need to ask is [...] Yes, excellent point. (And we can go further still.) I've been calling this the "fallacy of ignored instantiation". Personally, this is something I've been ruminating on for a while and have meant to do a writeup on it for a couple years now. Hopefully, though, that name is descriptive enough that a certain crowd would, upon hearing it alone, understand almost exactly where I would go with it. (Alternatively, if anyone knows of any good treatments that already exist on this topic, please let me know.)
- foldr 11y ago
  The thing is that when you're looking at job candidates, you typically have far more reliable indicators of employability than race. So it is not justifiable to make race a significant factor in your decision. These sorts of biases tend to show up even when race is absolutely demonstrably non-informative. (E.g., when reviewing journal articles.)
nickbauman 11y ago
Using a name that is statistically far more likely to be a black male is what is "working out". I think we can agree that inferring someone's race and gender from their name is not the same as being racist or gender biased.
simonjw 11y ago
The second half of the parent comment states the problem is if you treat people differently based on those assumptions. Guessing that someone called Jamaal is probably black is like guessing that someone called Sue is probably female.
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  I was going to say "Johnny Cash kind of destroyed that last one", but on reflection, he really didn't. Sue is still probably female, despite Johnny Cash...
paulhauggis 11y ago
Okay, then we need to remove all stereotypes: republicans are rich old men that want to hurt the poor people, religious people don't like gays, anyone that didn't vote for the current president MUST be racist, if something it's written in PHP..it must be terrible because the language is terrible, the police are all racist and want to kill unarmed black men. I could go on. There are plenty of stereotypes and generalizations that continue to go on even here on HN..without anybody seeming to care. "Many snap judgments based on race lead to the death of unarmed black men and women" A small percentage of this is going to happen no matter what, and it needs to be prevented. The problem I have is that society is not allowed to use statistics or facts any longer because it's not politically correct. If I'm a police officer going into a neighborhood that has had multiple crimes, shootings, and deaths, and the perpetrators were black, I'm going to be extra careful if I see someone that is black doing anything suspicious. This is just being smart. "Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal?" The resumes they used were nowhere to be found on the site, so I don't even know if I can believe this study. "Norton Pscyhology: Devah Pager and Dalton Conley discuss racism and the stigma of criminal record" Of course there is a stigma of a criminal record. There should be, because it's not a good thing. If there are two applicants, 1 with a criminal record and one with slightly worse experience and no criminal record..I'm going to chose the latter every time. Sorry, but if you don't want to be judged on your criminal record, don't commit crimes.
- kaa2102 11y ago
  No, the studies showed that black males with NO criminal record were called back at the same rate as white males WITH a criminal record.
- tzs 11y ago
  > If I'm a police officer going into a neighborhood that has had multiple crimes, shootings, and deaths, and the perpetrators were black, I'm going to be extra careful if I see someone that is black doing anything suspicious. This is just being smart. OK, but note that this has a side effect of innocent blacks getting stopped and questioned with a higher probability than innocent whites (where by innocent I mean not doing whatever activity it was you suspected them of when you stopped them). Ans since you are going in extra cautious about blacks, if you find something that is borderline between worth charging them for or letting them off with a warning, you'll probably be more likely to charge a black and let a white off. Result: among blacks and whites doing the exact same things, blacks are more likely to acquire a criminal record... ... > Of course there is a stigma of a criminal record. There should be, because it's not a good thing. If there are two applicants, 1 with a criminal record and one with slightly worse experience and no criminal record..I'm going to chose the latter every time. Sorry, but if you don't want to be judged on your criminal record, don't commit crimes. ...which you want to use to avoid hiring them.
golemotron 11y ago
> It is absolutely unreasonable. When you say it "works out more often than not" I would ask "For whom?" Many snap judgments based on race lead to the death of unarmed black men and women. So your solution is to rewire the brain so that it doesn't generalize? Is this what contemporary discussions of prejudice attempt? Guilting people for aspects of cognition? No, I think it's better to at least admit that this sort of subconscious bias is a problem and that we don't know now to fix it yet.

by kaa2102 11y ago

the8472 11y ago

You are conflating the observation that a person who has a name predominantly used by african-americans is most likely african-american with further, discriminating, acts based on that observation.

nickbauman 11y ago
Much more succinct than how I said it.
kaa2102 11y ago
"We are blind to our blindness." Where do the generalizations stop?
- the8472 11y ago
  As others have mentioned, we generalize all the time. We have to. No single stone is like the other, and yet we we talk about stones and pebbles like they were some uniform set of platonic ideals and some sharp boundary separating one from the other. We lack both knowledge about each individual and the capacity to hold all detailed information of all individuals in our heads to not shove them into categories. Of course once you know someone better you slice them into finer categories ("polite person", "work-a-holic", ...) and thus add facets and tidits to your model of that other person. But that in itself is a continuum from broad categories to unique bits of information about a person. If you're walking down a street at night in a city with a high crime rate and a group of tattooed, muscular youths comes around a corner then you're likely not going to treat them as individuals. You will at least consider crossing the street because you categorize them as potential threat. Even if that particular group of youths is no threat, it's still a matter of probabilities they might be and avoiding them seems a reasonable risk-avoidance strategy because it costs you little. You simply don't have the time or necessary information to treat them as individuals. So as long as your generalizations are statistically sound (instead of outdated stereotypes) they are useful and should only stop once better information becomes available.
  - yodsanklai 11y ago
    > So as long as your generalizations are statistically sound (instead of outdated stereotypes) they are useful and should only stop once better information becomes available. I agree with that. However, in certain cases, it's called discrimination and it's illegal.

contergan 11y ago

>Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal? That's impossible to say on an individual level, but it is very likely. If you phrase the question differently, there's a pretty clear answer: >On average, are two white people more employable than two black people? Without knowing any further info about the possible candidates - Yes. Looking at education statistics in the US, it becomes clear pretty quickly, that the average white person has a higher education level, than the average black person for example. That's a pretty important factor to look for as an employer. I'm sure statistics on work experience will look similar. And of course this is quite racist, but as long as different races exist, that really just means taking reality into account. Pretending there are no differences between different population groups is insane and counterproductive.

shabda 11y ago
> On average, are two white people more employable than two black people? Instead of above, the question you need to ask is "On average, are two white people who are applying to your job more employable than two black people who are applying to your job ? I don't believe the answer is yes. A person who has overcome the statistics you quote has the same ability and employability regardless of race.
- carussell 11y ago
  > Instead of above, the question you need to ask is [...] Yes, excellent point. (And we can go further still.) I've been calling this the "fallacy of ignored instantiation". Personally, this is something I've been ruminating on for a while and have meant to do a writeup on it for a couple years now. Hopefully, though, that name is descriptive enough that a certain crowd would, upon hearing it alone, understand almost exactly where I would go with it. (Alternatively, if anyone knows of any good treatments that already exist on this topic, please let me know.)
foldr 11y ago
The thing is that when you're looking at job candidates, you typically have far more reliable indicators of employability than race. So it is not justifiable to make race a significant factor in your decision. These sorts of biases tend to show up even when race is absolutely demonstrably non-informative. (E.g., when reviewing journal articles.)

nickbauman 11y ago

Using a name that is statistically far more likely to be a black male is what is "working out". I think we can agree that inferring someone's race and gender from their name is not the same as being racist or gender biased.

simonjw 11y ago

The second half of the parent comment states the problem is if you treat people differently based on those assumptions. Guessing that someone called Jamaal is probably black is like guessing that someone called Sue is probably female.

AnimalMuppet 11y ago
I was going to say "Johnny Cash kind of destroyed that last one", but on reflection, he really didn't. Sue is still probably female, despite Johnny Cash...

paulhauggis 11y ago

Okay, then we need to remove all stereotypes: republicans are rich old men that want to hurt the poor people, religious people don't like gays, anyone that didn't vote for the current president MUST be racist, if something it's written in PHP..it must be terrible because the language is terrible, the police are all racist and want to kill unarmed black men. I could go on. There are plenty of stereotypes and generalizations that continue to go on even here on HN..without anybody seeming to care. "Many snap judgments based on race lead to the death of unarmed black men and women" A small percentage of this is going to happen no matter what, and it needs to be prevented. The problem I have is that society is not allowed to use statistics or facts any longer because it's not politically correct. If I'm a police officer going into a neighborhood that has had multiple crimes, shootings, and deaths, and the perpetrators were black, I'm going to be extra careful if I see someone that is black doing anything suspicious. This is just being smart. "Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal?" The resumes they used were nowhere to be found on the site, so I don't even know if I can believe this study. "Norton Pscyhology: Devah Pager and Dalton Conley discuss racism and the stigma of criminal record" Of course there is a stigma of a criminal record. There should be, because it's not a good thing. If there are two applicants, 1 with a criminal record and one with slightly worse experience and no criminal record..I'm going to chose the latter every time. Sorry, but if you don't want to be judged on your criminal record, don't commit crimes.

kaa2102 11y ago
No, the studies showed that black males with NO criminal record were called back at the same rate as white males WITH a criminal record.
tzs 11y ago
> If I'm a police officer going into a neighborhood that has had multiple crimes, shootings, and deaths, and the perpetrators were black, I'm going to be extra careful if I see someone that is black doing anything suspicious. This is just being smart. OK, but note that this has a side effect of innocent blacks getting stopped and questioned with a higher probability than innocent whites (where by innocent I mean not doing whatever activity it was you suspected them of when you stopped them). Ans since you are going in extra cautious about blacks, if you find something that is borderline between worth charging them for or letting them off with a warning, you'll probably be more likely to charge a black and let a white off. Result: among blacks and whites doing the exact same things, blacks are more likely to acquire a criminal record... ... > Of course there is a stigma of a criminal record. There should be, because it's not a good thing. If there are two applicants, 1 with a criminal record and one with slightly worse experience and no criminal record..I'm going to chose the latter every time. Sorry, but if you don't want to be judged on your criminal record, don't commit crimes. ...which you want to use to avoid hiring them.

golemotron 11y ago

> It is absolutely unreasonable. When you say it "works out more often than not" I would ask "For whom?" Many snap judgments based on race lead to the death of unarmed black men and women. So your solution is to rewire the brain so that it doesn't generalize? Is this what contemporary discussions of prejudice attempt? Guilting people for aspects of cognition? No, I think it's better to at least admit that this sort of subconscious bias is a problem and that we don't know now to fix it yet.