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> Those who disagree, why? They probably feel that the Nuremberg trials are a hyperbolic example here, and worry that line of argument brushes a little too clo

> Those who disagree, why? They probably feel that the Nuremberg trials are a hyperbolic example here, and worry that line of argument brushes a little too close to Godwin's Law. Upshot, we probably all agree with you that everyone has personal responsibility for their actions. There are still situations where we want attorneys to listen to their clients though.

madez 12y ago
Do you have a better example where personal responsibility was officialy upheld?
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  A story about a two year old learning about agency would be a better example, there are millions of better examples for this context. The most extreme example of a thing you can find is not usually the ideal example to use for most contexts. Rather than clarifying things, if it dwarfs the context, it then appears automatically ridiculous even if the basic argument is sound.
  - madez 12y ago
    > A story about a two year old learning about agency would be a better example, This is not an example for official upholding of personal responsibility. > there are millions of better examples for this context. This is hand-waving. I used the Nuremberg trials specifically to not hand-wave.
    - lotsofmangos 12y ago
      "This is hand-waving. I used the Nuremberg trials specifically to not hand-wave." Now that is funny, though I suspect unintentionally, and in horrifically bad taste either way.
      - madez 12y ago
        I think here is some kind of misunderstanding. I did not intend to be funny nor do I see why it was bad taste. My question for a better example was genuine.
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        mryan 12y ago
        Presumably lotsofmangos is making a reference to the Nazi salute.
        lotsofmangos 12y ago
        It was admittedly the first thing that came to mind from a sentence about Nuremberg and handwaving.
        madez 12y ago
        Ah, I see. Well, it wasn't meant like this. It was meant as a pejorative label for him stating there are millions of better examples for this context without providing one valid example.
        lotsofmangos 12y ago
        I provided a valid example. It was admittedly a bit of a rubbish example, but then it was intended to be. But nevertheless, a story about a two year old learning about agency, as in, concepts of personal choice and consequence of action, is an example much better suited to the context of whether lawyers should send out strongly worded cease and desist letters when their clients tell them to, than relying on the court response to the Nuremburg defense in the face of genocide.
        madez 12y ago
        I provided a valid example. No, you did not. I asked for "a better example where personal responsibility was officially upheld". Your example was explaining a child agency, which _does not_ include officially upholding personal responsibility. Furthermore, I did not draw any comparison between the Nuremberg Trials and the case in question, but used them only to substantiate my argument for personal responsibility. Reread what I wrote if you are doubting. Don't assume everybody does cheap puns and invalidly makes up connections between what was said. If I mean it, I say so.
Lawtonfogle 12y ago
Godwin's law is a overused to shut down legitimate topics. And while the point may be the most extreme, it is still a very valid point. If one wants to say it is different, one needs to articulate why.
- madez 12y ago
  Thank you for bringing sense into this discussion. I wouldn't say extreme, but fundamental. I referenced the Nuremberg Principles because they are so fundamental and I genuinely don't know a better example. Several people in the community misuse down-votes. They down-vote on-topic, constructive and serious discussions which disagree with their opinion instead of simply articulating their criticism.
0xdeadbeefbabe 12y ago
Godwin said, "I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler or to Nazis to think a bit harder about the Holocaust"[0] I suppose because "Godwin's law" is in the dictionary now you are free to add meaning as you like, but I wouldn't be happy about this stackoverlow like meta trivial pursuit at the expense of logic if I were Godwin. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
- qbrass 12y ago
  He understood memes and introduced species enough to introduce a meme as a predator to a different meme, but ignored that introduced species with no predators quickly become invasive themselves. So if he's not happy, he's only got himself to blame.
  - madez 12y ago
    But it has a predator: critical thought.

madez 12y ago

Do you have a better example where personal responsibility was officialy upheld?

lotsofmangos 12y ago
A story about a two year old learning about agency would be a better example, there are millions of better examples for this context. The most extreme example of a thing you can find is not usually the ideal example to use for most contexts. Rather than clarifying things, if it dwarfs the context, it then appears automatically ridiculous even if the basic argument is sound.
- madez 12y ago
  > A story about a two year old learning about agency would be a better example, This is not an example for official upholding of personal responsibility. > there are millions of better examples for this context. This is hand-waving. I used the Nuremberg trials specifically to not hand-wave.
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    "This is hand-waving. I used the Nuremberg trials specifically to not hand-wave." Now that is funny, though I suspect unintentionally, and in horrifically bad taste either way.
    - madez 12y ago
      I think here is some kind of misunderstanding. I did not intend to be funny nor do I see why it was bad taste. My question for a better example was genuine.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - mryan 12y ago
        Presumably lotsofmangos is making a reference to the Nazi salute.
        lotsofmangos 12y ago
        It was admittedly the first thing that came to mind from a sentence about Nuremberg and handwaving.
        madez 12y ago
        Ah, I see. Well, it wasn't meant like this. It was meant as a pejorative label for him stating there are millions of better examples for this context without providing one valid example.
        lotsofmangos 12y ago
        I provided a valid example. It was admittedly a bit of a rubbish example, but then it was intended to be. But nevertheless, a story about a two year old learning about agency, as in, concepts of personal choice and consequence of action, is an example much better suited to the context of whether lawyers should send out strongly worded cease and desist letters when their clients tell them to, than relying on the court response to the Nuremburg defense in the face of genocide.
        madez 12y ago
        I provided a valid example. No, you did not. I asked for "a better example where personal responsibility was officially upheld". Your example was explaining a child agency, which _does not_ include officially upholding personal responsibility. Furthermore, I did not draw any comparison between the Nuremberg Trials and the case in question, but used them only to substantiate my argument for personal responsibility. Reread what I wrote if you are doubting. Don't assume everybody does cheap puns and invalidly makes up connections between what was said. If I mean it, I say so.

Lawtonfogle 12y ago

Godwin's law is a overused to shut down legitimate topics. And while the point may be the most extreme, it is still a very valid point. If one wants to say it is different, one needs to articulate why.

madez 12y ago
Thank you for bringing sense into this discussion. I wouldn't say extreme, but fundamental. I referenced the Nuremberg Principles because they are so fundamental and I genuinely don't know a better example. Several people in the community misuse down-votes. They down-vote on-topic, constructive and serious discussions which disagree with their opinion instead of simply articulating their criticism.

0xdeadbeefbabe 12y ago

Godwin said, "I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler or to Nazis to think a bit harder about the Holocaust"[0] I suppose because "Godwin's law" is in the dictionary now you are free to add meaning as you like, but I wouldn't be happy about this stackoverlow like meta trivial pursuit at the expense of logic if I were Godwin. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

qbrass 12y ago
He understood memes and introduced species enough to introduce a meme as a predator to a different meme, but ignored that introduced species with no predators quickly become invasive themselves. So if he's not happy, he's only got himself to blame.
- madez 12y ago
  But it has a predator: critical thought.