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Why are you both saying "we need to work on putting together a better social safety net and we need to work on making a whole lot more affordable housing availa

by powera 11y ago

Why are you both saying "we need to work on putting together a better social safety net and we need to work on making a whole lot more affordable housing available" and dismissing Section 8 Housing, which, as far as I can tell from a reading on Wikipedia, is a social safety net that provides affordable housing? Is there something specifically wrong with Section 8?

Mz 11y ago
Section 8 housing is rental housing. Like a high percentage of homeless people, part of why I am on the street is that I have a serious medical condition. I don't want to ever rent again. Having a high degree of control over my home is necessary for me to stay healthy and off drugs. I would rather remain homeless than give up my agency by entering a shelter or a government program that sets a low bar for quality of life because they figure that "beggars can't be choosers." I am talking about a social safety net for citizens that first and foremost respects them as people with a right to choose and a right to expect a high standard of living. Most American welfare programs are designed in a way that is enormously disrespectful and expects people to accept some pretty crappy things because in order to get help, you first need to be defined as poor. That's a terrible way to create a social safety net. Other countries have a better track record of providing a safety net for their citizens that allows them to access benefits while still middle class or regardless of their social class. America is pretty bad about not doing anything for you until after you are poor and then doing things that help keep your poor and actively discourage upward mobility. Edit: I have no idea why this has been downvoted, but my medical condition is deadly and torturous. It is also incredibly expensive to treat with conventional medicine, like $100k/year and up. Compared to that, sleeping in a tent is a minor inconvenience. I have done much better since walking away from a crappy, mold-infested apartment. So I have no plans to go back to renting. Ever.
- bane 11y ago
  > It is also incredibly expensive to treat with conventional medicine, like $100k/year and up. I've read some of your posts with interest. Apologies if I'm making too much of an assumption, but how do you afford to pay for your medical condition without a job and how can you take proper care of it without housing? The kind of money you talk about in your blog is measured in fractions of dollars, not hundreds of thousands of dollars needed to properly care for yourself. I'm sure I'm missing part of the story here and would be interested to know more.
  - Mz 11y ago
    The short version is that I don't treat it conventionally. Suffice it to say that an ounce of prevention is worth at least a pound of cure and not living in a mold-infested hell hole has done me a lot of good.
- rifung 11y ago
  What do you propose to do instead of providing affordable rental housing? I can't imagine it'd be practical to provide free housing after all. I guess I'm just a little confused because you definitely sound like you have a strong opinion on the matter and disagree with what other people think should be done but don't really get into specifics about what you think should be done. It sounds like right now we have a safety social net for poor people, but you don't think that's a good idea. Does this mean that you think we need a safety social net for people who aren't poor as well? But if they aren't poor why would they need one? Perhaps I'm "part of the problem" so do enlighten me. Also, at least based off your situation, it seems like what we really need isn't just affordable housing but treatment for those with mental illness. Despite the fact that I actually have health insurance I'm still hesitant to get treatment because it's so expensive.
  - slazaro 11y ago
    > Does this mean that you think we need a safety social net for people who aren't poor as well? But if they aren't poor why would they need one? From what I've understood from threads like this, I think the idea is that social services designed for people in need should not try to prove that the person requesting actually needs it. It creates friction, and it's a waste of resources (money, people, time), and some people that need the service might not get it because the system fucks up every now and then. If you'd open it up to whoever asked for it, people in need would naturally request it and get it, and people that don't wouldn't. If someone abused the system (and this is the big assumption IMO), the amount lost would probably be lower than what would have been spent trying to enforce requirements. So you'd solve the false negatives and would also spend less, and the system would be simpler. Of course, I don't know much about this, this is what I've gathered from reading around.
    - Mz 11y ago
      From years of study and first-hand experience, defining "need" based on something other than income is far more effective in helping people attain and keep a middle class lifestyle. Requiring people to first be able to meet a definition of poverty helps encourage people to fail and actively creates barriers to escaping poverty. So, for example: Affordable, good quality health care for all. Price breaks on public transit passes for people who are handicapped (this actually exists and I think is a good example of something helpful). Functioning public transit systems that give people options other than owning a car for how to get around. An abundance of affordable, decent housing -- where "affordable" is not a code word for slum housing but honestly just means the price is not out of reach of average folks with ordinary jobs. Lack of affordable housing is such a problem in some places that police, teachers and so on often cannot afford to live in the communities they serve. These are not people who are incompetent and looking for a handout, yet some communities have to set up special programs to help them buy a house or live reasonably close to work because our housing policies are so horribly broken. Maternity leave and other policies that help women get and keep jobs and pursue real careers. I read a lot about this in my twenties. In America, women pursued the American historical position of "Don't tread on me!" and took the position that "I can too do the job if you just get the fuck out of my way." The result is that women who are without a man and without children make about 98% of what men make who have similar education and experience. But the minute you introduce a man or a child into the picture, American women make more like 2/3s what men make -- the same figure cited in the bible as what women were worth compared to men 2000-ish years ago. In contrast, European women have pushed for help in carrying the burden of bearing and raising kids and the result has been substantially more gains in terms of closing the wage gap and overall lower divorce rates. The things you are suggesting are problematic because it actively disincentivizes working. I am not for just free handouts for poor people. I am for fixing the system so it stops actively creating problems and pushing folks off a cliff and then blaming them when their life falls apart and they can't figure out how to get it back together.

by powera 11y ago

Mz 11y ago

Section 8 housing is rental housing. Like a high percentage of homeless people, part of why I am on the street is that I have a serious medical condition. I don't want to ever rent again. Having a high degree of control over my home is necessary for me to stay healthy and off drugs. I would rather remain homeless than give up my agency by entering a shelter or a government program that sets a low bar for quality of life because they figure that "beggars can't be choosers." I am talking about a social safety net for citizens that first and foremost respects them as people with a right to choose and a right to expect a high standard of living. Most American welfare programs are designed in a way that is enormously disrespectful and expects people to accept some pretty crappy things because in order to get help, you first need to be defined as poor. That's a terrible way to create a social safety net. Other countries have a better track record of providing a safety net for their citizens that allows them to access benefits while still middle class or regardless of their social class. America is pretty bad about not doing anything for you until after you are poor and then doing things that help keep your poor and actively discourage upward mobility. Edit: I have no idea why this has been downvoted, but my medical condition is deadly and torturous. It is also incredibly expensive to treat with conventional medicine, like $100k/year and up. Compared to that, sleeping in a tent is a minor inconvenience. I have done much better since walking away from a crappy, mold-infested apartment. So I have no plans to go back to renting. Ever.

bane 11y ago
> It is also incredibly expensive to treat with conventional medicine, like $100k/year and up. I've read some of your posts with interest. Apologies if I'm making too much of an assumption, but how do you afford to pay for your medical condition without a job and how can you take proper care of it without housing? The kind of money you talk about in your blog is measured in fractions of dollars, not hundreds of thousands of dollars needed to properly care for yourself. I'm sure I'm missing part of the story here and would be interested to know more.
- Mz 11y ago
  The short version is that I don't treat it conventionally. Suffice it to say that an ounce of prevention is worth at least a pound of cure and not living in a mold-infested hell hole has done me a lot of good.
rifung 11y ago
What do you propose to do instead of providing affordable rental housing? I can't imagine it'd be practical to provide free housing after all. I guess I'm just a little confused because you definitely sound like you have a strong opinion on the matter and disagree with what other people think should be done but don't really get into specifics about what you think should be done. It sounds like right now we have a safety social net for poor people, but you don't think that's a good idea. Does this mean that you think we need a safety social net for people who aren't poor as well? But if they aren't poor why would they need one? Perhaps I'm "part of the problem" so do enlighten me. Also, at least based off your situation, it seems like what we really need isn't just affordable housing but treatment for those with mental illness. Despite the fact that I actually have health insurance I'm still hesitant to get treatment because it's so expensive.
- slazaro 11y ago
  > Does this mean that you think we need a safety social net for people who aren't poor as well? But if they aren't poor why would they need one? From what I've understood from threads like this, I think the idea is that social services designed for people in need should not try to prove that the person requesting actually needs it. It creates friction, and it's a waste of resources (money, people, time), and some people that need the service might not get it because the system fucks up every now and then. If you'd open it up to whoever asked for it, people in need would naturally request it and get it, and people that don't wouldn't. If someone abused the system (and this is the big assumption IMO), the amount lost would probably be lower than what would have been spent trying to enforce requirements. So you'd solve the false negatives and would also spend less, and the system would be simpler. Of course, I don't know much about this, this is what I've gathered from reading around.
  - Mz 11y ago
    From years of study and first-hand experience, defining "need" based on something other than income is far more effective in helping people attain and keep a middle class lifestyle. Requiring people to first be able to meet a definition of poverty helps encourage people to fail and actively creates barriers to escaping poverty. So, for example: Affordable, good quality health care for all. Price breaks on public transit passes for people who are handicapped (this actually exists and I think is a good example of something helpful). Functioning public transit systems that give people options other than owning a car for how to get around. An abundance of affordable, decent housing -- where "affordable" is not a code word for slum housing but honestly just means the price is not out of reach of average folks with ordinary jobs. Lack of affordable housing is such a problem in some places that police, teachers and so on often cannot afford to live in the communities they serve. These are not people who are incompetent and looking for a handout, yet some communities have to set up special programs to help them buy a house or live reasonably close to work because our housing policies are so horribly broken. Maternity leave and other policies that help women get and keep jobs and pursue real careers. I read a lot about this in my twenties. In America, women pursued the American historical position of "Don't tread on me!" and took the position that "I can too do the job if you just get the fuck out of my way." The result is that women who are without a man and without children make about 98% of what men make who have similar education and experience. But the minute you introduce a man or a child into the picture, American women make more like 2/3s what men make -- the same figure cited in the bible as what women were worth compared to men 2000-ish years ago. In contrast, European women have pushed for help in carrying the burden of bearing and raising kids and the result has been substantially more gains in terms of closing the wage gap and overall lower divorce rates. The things you are suggesting are problematic because it actively disincentivizes working. I am not for just free handouts for poor people. I am for fixing the system so it stops actively creating problems and pushing folks off a cliff and then blaming them when their life falls apart and they can't figure out how to get it back together.