8 ms·

I agree. I'm a fireman with the FDNY and cops absolutely are on our side (and the same side as EMS as well). In the past 12 years there only was one time wher

I agree. I'm a fireman with the FDNY and cops absolutely are on our side (and the same side as EMS as well). In the past 12 years there only was one time where I even witnessed tension between us and them (an elevator emergency with victims, where ESU (New York's SWAT equivalent) and FDNY had overlapping jurisdictions). The bench-clearing hockey game brawls are the stuff of TV. Cops are by and large professionals, who get shot in the face while protecting the same community that vilifies them for a few bad apples.

Domenic_S 11y ago
> vilifies them for a few bad apples. What is that saying about "a few bad apples" again?
- mikeash 11y ago
  For those who are unfamiliar what this is referring to, the full saying is "A few bad apples spoils the bunch." This refers to the fact that overly ripe apples give off a chemical that speeds the ripening process of other apples, so a few bad apples among many good ones can destroy them all. The same thing can apply to people. The fact that there are bad police out there is only to be expected, just like you'd expect to find a few rotten apples in a large bunch of them. But just like the apples, you have to remove them, or the rot will spread. Bad police don't seem to get removed nearly often enough.
  - bdavisx 11y ago
    And often, they don't get removed because the "good" police protect them with a thin blue line of silence. Those "good" police aren't really good the very instant they protect the bad.
    - x3n0ph3n3 11y ago
      Those "good" police are just more bad apples.
    - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
      Police are under constant pressure from the public. Everybody they arrest is indignant, angry and certain the policeman is just hassling them. So the police develop a thick skin, and close ranks to protect one another. They couldn't exist otherwise. Its understandable. But it leads to problems when things like police hazing perps is tolerated. It leads to deaths in custody etc. I blame the leadership, which tolerated hazing and mistreatment. That has to be squelched instantly, or it grows without bound until somebody is seriously injured or dies.
      - jodah 11y ago
        > They couldn't exist otherwise. Policing in other western countries indicates otherwise. For example, if police were held personally liable, as a strict matter of law, for the cost of their mistakes (just as individuals in the private sector bear the cost of their mistakes), they would tend to act more responsibly. Britain is an example of this.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
youAreFullOf 11y ago
There a systemic problem with police officers in America. This isn't a "few bad apples" problem. The fact that you could even say that clearly shows you can only view the situation from a privileged perspective that is warped and skewed. Police act like they are in a war zone and pretend they are soldiers. They treat regular citizens as criminals by default and will always take the side of another police officer. Your comment and attitude makes me sick, and the only thing that brings a smile to my face is that people like dorner existed in attempt to bring balance to this fucked up situation. I'm not thankful for your service when people like you can't see the forest for the trees. I can only hope someday you feel the wrath of the thin blue line and are made to pay, then maybe your opinion might change. Seeing as how indoctrinated you are, I can imagine someone like you doubling down on their beliefs that cops are great people except a few "bad apples" and you just happened to get unlucky.
- JshWright 11y ago
  Do you really think that tone is productive? For the record, I agree with you. I think the militarization of law enforcement is a major issue, and it's quite plain that racism is a major problem in the criminal justice system at all levels (from the streets to the courtrooms). However... the bulk of the points you make are about the person you're replying to, not the actual issue. That is not an effective way to convince anyone of anything... All it does it turn a conversation into a confrontation. In many ways, that tactic is the very thing you dislike about cops (rather than engaging in a conversation, you chose to escalate into a confrontation).
  - may52015 11y ago
    Agreed. Though why is my comment below, which addresses the issues as you describe, now "dead".
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > There a systemic problem with police officers in America. I think its more useful to a view it as a systemic problem with policing institutions than with police officers. > This isn't a "few bad apples" problem. I think its a combination of a "few bad apples" problem with a "system that is structured as us against them, and thereby structurally protects the bad apples" problem.
tsunamifury 11y ago
On your side? Against who?!
- JshWright 11y ago
  Don't read too much into that... He just meant that Law/Fire/EMS are not on different sides. Saying that people are not on different sides does not imply another side even exists in the first place. The fact is that emergency responders _do_ end up getting attacked/assaulted/etc on a surprisingly regular basis. I can't remember the last time I didn't get at least verbally assaulted by someone at least once a week. Physical confrontations are all too common, and having law enforcement there when someone takes a swing at you is a very helpful thing... While there doesn't have to be two sides, that doesn't stop some idiots from choosing to make up their own side... When that happens, I'm glad to have someone with a taser and a gun on my 'side'.
- FireBeyond 11y ago
  It's not necessarily a 'bad' thing. It's an acknowledgment that we're often "forced" to be in situations with aggressive people where cops have defense mechanisms, tools, and we only have our wits. It's a "I've got your back" thing, not in the 'thin blue line' sense, but more "You take a swing at me, I have a taser. You take a swing at the paramedic, you're going to jail."
jodah 11y ago
People are vilified for breaking the law. Wearing a blue shirt doesn't change that.
JshWright 11y ago
Yeah... The ESU/FDNY Rescue pissing matches are really the only example I can think of where there is somewhat regular tension between cops and other emergency services. What's the deal with ESU, anyway? Does it really make sense to have a parallel rescue company? Seems like I only hear horror stories (like when they dropped a car on that motorcyclist...) EDIT: Also... "large professionals" indeed ;)
- ludicast 11y ago
  I'm not sure whose call it was for ESU to have these duties, but it probably was sold as increased neighborhood coverage, the same way engines do CFR until the real experts show up. Though I've had good experiences with them, I imagine there could be a lot of problems if their books assign them different tasks that conflict with us (I don't know what they learn). As far as the "car dropping" goes, there's no excuse for that ;).
may52015 11y ago
> Cops are by and large professionals, who get shot in the face while protecting the same community that vilifies them for a few bad apples. I doubt this is true, and I feel that this statement is dangerous propaganda that enables crimes against citizens, and that prevents honest discussion about or solutions to the problem. It seems clear that there is a wide-spread systematic problem of police committing crimes and abusing citizens. As a simple example, see what millions of citizens who are black or Latino say about their experiences; the complaints and documented problems extend across the country, encompassing whole ethnic groups and neighborhoods. (For decades police openly assisted in the outright oppression of minorities.) It seems very unlikely that is the product of "a few", or that it's coincidence that we see the same behavior everywhere. That is a systematic problem; and the solution will come only from addressing it on a systematic level. I'll add that the 'don't snitch' culture of police ensures that we know very little of what goes on -- likely problems occur much more than we know -- and collaboration by prosecutors ensures their impunity. We know that police can murder, steal (asset forfeitures), assault, kidnap (unlawful arrest) or commit any other crime, even on film, usually without reprocussions. Challenges to their impunity are met with outrage and threats, even in the most egregious cases (e.g., Eric Garner). For the well-intentioned police out there, and I'm sure there are many, your intentions are not enough. As long as you protect bad police, you are accomplices in crimes and participating in conspiracies.
CamperBob2 11y ago
Cops are by and large professionals, who get shot in the face... ... at about the same rate as pizza delivery drivers.
- PebblesHD 11y ago
  thats a fantastically interesting response, nice. Are tehre statistics for these sorts of things, i think that'd be a really interesting article on its own, comparison of violent crime rates against various occupations.
  - CamperBob2 11y ago
    I don't know if anyone breaks it down crimewise, but the US Bureau of Labor Statistics keeps track of the "most dangerous jobs" in terms of injuries and deaths from all causes, updated on an annual basis. Law enforcement often doesn't even make the top 10, but you'd never know that from all the whining they do. One source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2013/08/22/americas-10-deadliest-jobs-2/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2013/08/22/americ...

Domenic_S 11y ago

> vilifies them for a few bad apples. What is that saying about "a few bad apples" again?

mikeash 11y ago
For those who are unfamiliar what this is referring to, the full saying is "A few bad apples spoils the bunch." This refers to the fact that overly ripe apples give off a chemical that speeds the ripening process of other apples, so a few bad apples among many good ones can destroy them all. The same thing can apply to people. The fact that there are bad police out there is only to be expected, just like you'd expect to find a few rotten apples in a large bunch of them. But just like the apples, you have to remove them, or the rot will spread. Bad police don't seem to get removed nearly often enough.
- bdavisx 11y ago
  And often, they don't get removed because the "good" police protect them with a thin blue line of silence. Those "good" police aren't really good the very instant they protect the bad.
  - x3n0ph3n3 11y ago
    Those "good" police are just more bad apples.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    Police are under constant pressure from the public. Everybody they arrest is indignant, angry and certain the policeman is just hassling them. So the police develop a thick skin, and close ranks to protect one another. They couldn't exist otherwise. Its understandable. But it leads to problems when things like police hazing perps is tolerated. It leads to deaths in custody etc. I blame the leadership, which tolerated hazing and mistreatment. That has to be squelched instantly, or it grows without bound until somebody is seriously injured or dies.
    - jodah 11y ago
      > They couldn't exist otherwise. Policing in other western countries indicates otherwise. For example, if police were held personally liable, as a strict matter of law, for the cost of their mistakes (just as individuals in the private sector bear the cost of their mistakes), they would tend to act more responsibly. Britain is an example of this.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

youAreFullOf 11y ago

There a systemic problem with police officers in America. This isn't a "few bad apples" problem. The fact that you could even say that clearly shows you can only view the situation from a privileged perspective that is warped and skewed. Police act like they are in a war zone and pretend they are soldiers. They treat regular citizens as criminals by default and will always take the side of another police officer. Your comment and attitude makes me sick, and the only thing that brings a smile to my face is that people like dorner existed in attempt to bring balance to this fucked up situation. I'm not thankful for your service when people like you can't see the forest for the trees. I can only hope someday you feel the wrath of the thin blue line and are made to pay, then maybe your opinion might change. Seeing as how indoctrinated you are, I can imagine someone like you doubling down on their beliefs that cops are great people except a few "bad apples" and you just happened to get unlucky.

JshWright 11y ago
Do you really think that tone is productive? For the record, I agree with you. I think the militarization of law enforcement is a major issue, and it's quite plain that racism is a major problem in the criminal justice system at all levels (from the streets to the courtrooms). However... the bulk of the points you make are about the person you're replying to, not the actual issue. That is not an effective way to convince anyone of anything... All it does it turn a conversation into a confrontation. In many ways, that tactic is the very thing you dislike about cops (rather than engaging in a conversation, you chose to escalate into a confrontation).
- may52015 11y ago
  Agreed. Though why is my comment below, which addresses the issues as you describe, now "dead".
dragonwriter 11y ago
> There a systemic problem with police officers in America. I think its more useful to a view it as a systemic problem with policing institutions than with police officers. > This isn't a "few bad apples" problem. I think its a combination of a "few bad apples" problem with a "system that is structured as us against them, and thereby structurally protects the bad apples" problem.

tsunamifury 11y ago

On your side? Against who?!

JshWright 11y ago
Don't read too much into that... He just meant that Law/Fire/EMS are not on different sides. Saying that people are not on different sides does not imply another side even exists in the first place. The fact is that emergency responders _do_ end up getting attacked/assaulted/etc on a surprisingly regular basis. I can't remember the last time I didn't get at least verbally assaulted by someone at least once a week. Physical confrontations are all too common, and having law enforcement there when someone takes a swing at you is a very helpful thing... While there doesn't have to be two sides, that doesn't stop some idiots from choosing to make up their own side... When that happens, I'm glad to have someone with a taser and a gun on my 'side'.
FireBeyond 11y ago
It's not necessarily a 'bad' thing. It's an acknowledgment that we're often "forced" to be in situations with aggressive people where cops have defense mechanisms, tools, and we only have our wits. It's a "I've got your back" thing, not in the 'thin blue line' sense, but more "You take a swing at me, I have a taser. You take a swing at the paramedic, you're going to jail."

jodah 11y ago

People are vilified for breaking the law. Wearing a blue shirt doesn't change that.

JshWright 11y ago

Yeah... The ESU/FDNY Rescue pissing matches are really the only example I can think of where there is somewhat regular tension between cops and other emergency services. What's the deal with ESU, anyway? Does it really make sense to have a parallel rescue company? Seems like I only hear horror stories (like when they dropped a car on that motorcyclist...) EDIT: Also... "large professionals" indeed ;)

ludicast 11y ago
I'm not sure whose call it was for ESU to have these duties, but it probably was sold as increased neighborhood coverage, the same way engines do CFR until the real experts show up. Though I've had good experiences with them, I imagine there could be a lot of problems if their books assign them different tasks that conflict with us (I don't know what they learn). As far as the "car dropping" goes, there's no excuse for that ;).

may52015 11y ago

> Cops are by and large professionals, who get shot in the face while protecting the same community that vilifies them for a few bad apples. I doubt this is true, and I feel that this statement is dangerous propaganda that enables crimes against citizens, and that prevents honest discussion about or solutions to the problem. It seems clear that there is a wide-spread systematic problem of police committing crimes and abusing citizens. As a simple example, see what millions of citizens who are black or Latino say about their experiences; the complaints and documented problems extend across the country, encompassing whole ethnic groups and neighborhoods. (For decades police openly assisted in the outright oppression of minorities.) It seems very unlikely that is the product of "a few", or that it's coincidence that we see the same behavior everywhere. That is a systematic problem; and the solution will come only from addressing it on a systematic level. I'll add that the 'don't snitch' culture of police ensures that we know very little of what goes on -- likely problems occur much more than we know -- and collaboration by prosecutors ensures their impunity. We know that police can murder, steal (asset forfeitures), assault, kidnap (unlawful arrest) or commit any other crime, even on film, usually without reprocussions. Challenges to their impunity are met with outrage and threats, even in the most egregious cases (e.g., Eric Garner). For the well-intentioned police out there, and I'm sure there are many, your intentions are not enough. As long as you protect bad police, you are accomplices in crimes and participating in conspiracies.

CamperBob2 11y ago

Cops are by and large professionals, who get shot in the face... ... at about the same rate as pizza delivery drivers.

PebblesHD 11y ago
thats a fantastically interesting response, nice. Are tehre statistics for these sorts of things, i think that'd be a really interesting article on its own, comparison of violent crime rates against various occupations.
- CamperBob2 11y ago
  I don't know if anyone breaks it down crimewise, but the US Bureau of Labor Statistics keeps track of the "most dangerous jobs" in terms of injuries and deaths from all causes, updated on an annual basis. Law enforcement often doesn't even make the top 10, but you'd never know that from all the whining they do. One source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2013/08/22/americas-10-deadliest-jobs-2/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2013/08/22/americ...