4 ms·

He also created the Black Speech with the goal of making an ugly and harsh language, but apparently never got that far with it because he found it unpleasant.

by chc 12y ago

jordigh 12y ago
It really bugs me that people consider some languages ugly or harsh. It seems like an extension of xenophobia and racism.
- pdabbadabba 12y ago
  It might be. But then again, at least in the U.S., many of the languages we consider 'ugly' sounding are not spoken by people that we (presently) exhibit a lot of negative biases towards. (Obviously I'm thinking of German here.) It seems perfectly plausible to me that, just as there are unpleasant non-linguistic sounds, there could be languages that produce a greater number of unpleasant sounds in typical speech, to a person from any cultural background. Think: nails on a chalkboard. (I'm tempted to call these "objectively ugly" sounds, but of course having a social cause does not make something subjective.) Of course, this is not to say that racism, or xenophobia are never the causes of these judgments. And, more subtly, some of our views about what sounds are 'ugly' may also be socially constructed, at least in part. And these views could relate to longstanding racial biases, among other factors. tl;dr: Probably some of these judgments are facially racist, and others are caused by genuine assessments of the ugliness of sounds, but those judgments themselves may have social causes that include racist and xenophobic dynamics. But others still may well relate to perceptions that are hardwired, and not socially constructed. All this complexity makes me hesitate before signing on to your view, though I do sometimes lean in that direction.
  - muaddirac 12y ago
    I always think that people dislike the sound of German because of its media representation. When it's only ever spoken like the political leaders in Triumph of the Will, it's understandably unpleasant. But I find spoken German quite beautiful (so much so I studied it throughout college). A good example of nicely spoken German is "Die Bombe die Nicht Tickt" (a reading of a short story by a German band whose name eludes me). Also the main character in Goodbye Lenin.
  - jordigh 12y ago
    Well, it bugs me because can native speakers really believe their own language to be ugly? Has a German ever said, "how ugly German is, if only I were born speaking something beautiful like Italian?" If native speakers don't believe their own languages to be ugly, then it certainly seems like a xenophobic belief.
    - pdabbadabba 12y ago
      That's an interesting point. As a native speaker of English, there certainly are phrases that strike me as ugly, but usually it takes some reflection to see the ugliness. This makes me think that one's failure to see the ugliness in one's own language is just a result of being used to the way it sounds, ugly or not. (By the way: yes, I actually have heard people say that they wished that they spoke another language because it sounds nicer than theirs. English speakers say this about French all the time -- though, as always, it's hard to say whether this is because French "really is" [whatever that means] prettier sounding, or due to cultural factors. I've also heard a native speaker of Korean say she wished she was an English speaker instead, because English is nicer sounding. This is just another anecdote, though. Who knows a person's real reason for saying such a thing. That's why this whole paragraph is, I now realize, in parentheses.)
      - jordigh 12y ago
        One more thing: painting a language as ugly is a very broad thing to do. Is 99 Luftballons an ugly song because it's in German? Are Mussolini's speeches beautiful because they're in Italian? In the original case of the orcs' Black Speech in Tolkein, they were a race incapable of saying anything pretty because of their language. These are the broad fantastical racism undertones that really bug me about Tolkein's mythology, and they mirror a real undercurrent in people's modes of thought.
        pdabbadabba 12y ago
        I agree with your second paragraph. But I think the comparison with Black Speech has driven you a little off the mark about what people actually say about real languages. I don't think anyone says that you can't say anything pretty in a so-called "ugly language." They only mean that some tend to sound less pleasing than others. So with your 99 Luftballons example, nobody ever said that nothing in German can ever be nice sounding. And for the latter, I think you're conflating beauty with moral value. Personally, I don't know what Mussolini's speeches actually sounded like, so I can't comment. Again, I cannot see how this is a difficult position to accept: some sounds sound worse than others. Spoken languages are made up of sounds. So why is it so hard to accept that some languages contain more pleasing sounds than others. Of course, as I've already agreed, there can be a lot more at work than this, including racism. But as a general proposition, I don't see how you can hold that judgments about what languages are ugly are fundamentally racist. I also don't see how you've addressed the issue that the categories of people that we regard as speaking an ugly language only weakly correlate (if at all -- obviously this is not a mathematical exercise so I cannot be too precise here, unfortunately) with groups to which we have broad racial biases. I suppose I can't rule out that there are people out there in the U.S. or western Europe who would tell you, as a general proposition, that African and Middle Eastern languages are ugly. If so, those people are, I agree, letting their racial biases drive their aesthetic judgments about the qualities of language. But I don't think this is the typical case.
- irishcoffee 12y ago
  Why? French and Italian [0] are considered romance languages, because among other things they sound pretty. Russian [1] (and I suppose most Slavic languages) just don't generally sound pretty. For what its worth, I speak Russian; not terribly well, but I speak it. Russian really isn't a language that sounds "pretty" or "silky", or whichever adjective you'd prefer. The reason I decided to respond to you comment was a little more abstract than that though. People liking or disliking things about other kinds of people isn't racist. Some people just don't like things. I don't like black licorice (no idea who invented it, but I don't like it). I don't particularly care for traditional German food (I'll eat it, its just not my go to for food), and I don't think I'd ever wear a kilt to a wedding (I'm mostly Irish, then Italian, then Native American). I don't think those things make me racist or xenophobic. At least, I don't think less of anyone who prefers any of those things. I just don't like them for me. I think if we start claiming that not liking something like a language is racist, we're on a slippery slope indeed. For example, I don't like the color red. I don't like traditional Mexican music. Do either one of those things make me racist? I'm not trying to attack by any means, I'm sincerely curious. [0] http://www.orbilat.com/General_Survey/List_of_Romance_Languages.html http://www.orbilat.com/General_Survey/List_of_Romance_Langua... [1] http://www.russiaslam.com/2012/stories/the-russian-language-what-does-it-sounds-like.html http://www.russiaslam.com/2012/stories/the-russian-language-...
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > French and Italian [0] are considered romance languages, because among other things they sound pretty. No, they (along with Spanish and others) are considered "romance languages" because they descend from Vulgar Latin, the language of the common Romans of the late Imperial period. [0] Has nothing to do with sounding pretty. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages#Origins http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages#Origins and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages#Name http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages#Name
    - irishcoffee 12y ago
      No comment to the rest of it?
- chc 12y ago
  I'm not so sure. I don't think most people are racist against Klingons, but Klingon still tends to sound harsh — again, because it was designed that way (for example, it leans heavily on stops and affricates and tends to be produced in the back of the mouth). On the other hand, a lot of Americans exhibited a strange antipathy towards the French over the past decade, but it was never considered an ugly language.

He also created the Black Speech with the goal of making an ugly and harsh language, but apparently never got that far with it because he found it unpleasant.

by chc 12y ago

He also created the Black Speech with the goal of making an ugly and harsh language, but apparently never got that far with it because he found it unpleasant.

jordigh 12y ago

It really bugs me that people consider some languages ugly or harsh. It seems like an extension of xenophobia and racism.

pdabbadabba 12y ago
It might be. But then again, at least in the U.S., many of the languages we consider 'ugly' sounding are not spoken by people that we (presently) exhibit a lot of negative biases towards. (Obviously I'm thinking of German here.) It seems perfectly plausible to me that, just as there are unpleasant non-linguistic sounds, there could be languages that produce a greater number of unpleasant sounds in typical speech, to a person from any cultural background. Think: nails on a chalkboard. (I'm tempted to call these "objectively ugly" sounds, but of course having a social cause does not make something subjective.) Of course, this is not to say that racism, or xenophobia are never the causes of these judgments. And, more subtly, some of our views about what sounds are 'ugly' may also be socially constructed, at least in part. And these views could relate to longstanding racial biases, among other factors. tl;dr: Probably some of these judgments are facially racist, and others are caused by genuine assessments of the ugliness of sounds, but those judgments themselves may have social causes that include racist and xenophobic dynamics. But others still may well relate to perceptions that are hardwired, and not socially constructed. All this complexity makes me hesitate before signing on to your view, though I do sometimes lean in that direction.
- muaddirac 12y ago
  I always think that people dislike the sound of German because of its media representation. When it's only ever spoken like the political leaders in Triumph of the Will, it's understandably unpleasant. But I find spoken German quite beautiful (so much so I studied it throughout college). A good example of nicely spoken German is "Die Bombe die Nicht Tickt" (a reading of a short story by a German band whose name eludes me). Also the main character in Goodbye Lenin.
- jordigh 12y ago
  Well, it bugs me because can native speakers really believe their own language to be ugly? Has a German ever said, "how ugly German is, if only I were born speaking something beautiful like Italian?" If native speakers don't believe their own languages to be ugly, then it certainly seems like a xenophobic belief.
  - pdabbadabba 12y ago
    That's an interesting point. As a native speaker of English, there certainly are phrases that strike me as ugly, but usually it takes some reflection to see the ugliness. This makes me think that one's failure to see the ugliness in one's own language is just a result of being used to the way it sounds, ugly or not. (By the way: yes, I actually have heard people say that they wished that they spoke another language because it sounds nicer than theirs. English speakers say this about French all the time -- though, as always, it's hard to say whether this is because French "really is" [whatever that means] prettier sounding, or due to cultural factors. I've also heard a native speaker of Korean say she wished she was an English speaker instead, because English is nicer sounding. This is just another anecdote, though. Who knows a person's real reason for saying such a thing. That's why this whole paragraph is, I now realize, in parentheses.)
    - jordigh 12y ago
      One more thing: painting a language as ugly is a very broad thing to do. Is 99 Luftballons an ugly song because it's in German? Are Mussolini's speeches beautiful because they're in Italian? In the original case of the orcs' Black Speech in Tolkein, they were a race incapable of saying anything pretty because of their language. These are the broad fantastical racism undertones that really bug me about Tolkein's mythology, and they mirror a real undercurrent in people's modes of thought.
      - pdabbadabba 12y ago
        I agree with your second paragraph. But I think the comparison with Black Speech has driven you a little off the mark about what people actually say about real languages. I don't think anyone says that you can't say anything pretty in a so-called "ugly language." They only mean that some tend to sound less pleasing than others. So with your 99 Luftballons example, nobody ever said that nothing in German can ever be nice sounding. And for the latter, I think you're conflating beauty with moral value. Personally, I don't know what Mussolini's speeches actually sounded like, so I can't comment. Again, I cannot see how this is a difficult position to accept: some sounds sound worse than others. Spoken languages are made up of sounds. So why is it so hard to accept that some languages contain more pleasing sounds than others. Of course, as I've already agreed, there can be a lot more at work than this, including racism. But as a general proposition, I don't see how you can hold that judgments about what languages are ugly are fundamentally racist. I also don't see how you've addressed the issue that the categories of people that we regard as speaking an ugly language only weakly correlate (if at all -- obviously this is not a mathematical exercise so I cannot be too precise here, unfortunately) with groups to which we have broad racial biases. I suppose I can't rule out that there are people out there in the U.S. or western Europe who would tell you, as a general proposition, that African and Middle Eastern languages are ugly. If so, those people are, I agree, letting their racial biases drive their aesthetic judgments about the qualities of language. But I don't think this is the typical case.
irishcoffee 12y ago
Why? French and Italian [0] are considered romance languages, because among other things they sound pretty. Russian [1] (and I suppose most Slavic languages) just don't generally sound pretty. For what its worth, I speak Russian; not terribly well, but I speak it. Russian really isn't a language that sounds "pretty" or "silky", or whichever adjective you'd prefer. The reason I decided to respond to you comment was a little more abstract than that though. People liking or disliking things about other kinds of people isn't racist. Some people just don't like things. I don't like black licorice (no idea who invented it, but I don't like it). I don't particularly care for traditional German food (I'll eat it, its just not my go to for food), and I don't think I'd ever wear a kilt to a wedding (I'm mostly Irish, then Italian, then Native American). I don't think those things make me racist or xenophobic. At least, I don't think less of anyone who prefers any of those things. I just don't like them for me. I think if we start claiming that not liking something like a language is racist, we're on a slippery slope indeed. For example, I don't like the color red. I don't like traditional Mexican music. Do either one of those things make me racist? I'm not trying to attack by any means, I'm sincerely curious. [0] http://www.orbilat.com/General_Survey/List_of_Romance_Languages.html http://www.orbilat.com/General_Survey/List_of_Romance_Langua... [1] http://www.russiaslam.com/2012/stories/the-russian-language-what-does-it-sounds-like.html http://www.russiaslam.com/2012/stories/the-russian-language-...
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > French and Italian [0] are considered romance languages, because among other things they sound pretty. No, they (along with Spanish and others) are considered "romance languages" because they descend from Vulgar Latin, the language of the common Romans of the late Imperial period. [0] Has nothing to do with sounding pretty. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages#Origins http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages#Origins and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages#Name http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages#Name
  - irishcoffee 12y ago
    No comment to the rest of it?
chc 12y ago
I'm not so sure. I don't think most people are racist against Klingons, but Klingon still tends to sound harsh — again, because it was designed that way (for example, it leans heavily on stops and affricates and tends to be produced in the back of the mouth). On the other hand, a lot of Americans exhibited a strange antipathy towards the French over the past decade, but it was never considered an ugly language.