8 ms·

I'm an EMS professional and am very fortunate to work in an area where the local culture prevents much of this from happening. While it's primarily rural, we do

I'm an EMS professional and am very fortunate to work in an area where the local culture prevents much of this from happening. While it's primarily rural, we do mutual aid in the larger nearby cities ( around 10-90k people in each) and the culture is the same there. The cops respect the opinions of the EMS and Fire professionals in every case I can remember, and at the same time we rely on them for safety and respect their opinion in that regard. This is still fantastic advice however.

rmxt 11y ago
I immediately thought..."you must work in Vermont, Oregon, or a blue part of the Midwest, or some place like that." Judging from your profile, looks like I was right. I wish this mentality and culture were more pervasive across the United States. EDIT: My point above was less about a specific "culture of respect for EMS workers", and more about a "culture of respect for non-law enforcement" in general that law enforcement does not always seem to have in the United States. Rethinking, it might not be the red/blue state divide as responders have pointed out. I still do think that there's a geographic component to law enforcement culture. I completely agree that urban areas, though a blue general population, regularly show instances of oppressive police culture. With the above, I was more trying to point out that in those areas there are generally less reports of oppressive and abusive police behavior. However, maybe the effect that I am trying to point out is an illusion of sample size. Either way, I think we would all be in a better place could we extrapolate the small-town police vibe to large urban areas. Yes, it's idealistic, but removing the adversarial relationship between big city PDs and their populations is something worth striving for. https://xkcd.com/1138/ https://xkcd.com/1138/
- JshWright 11y ago
  Why would that be geographically variable? I'm a paramedic in New York, outside of stories that very occasionally hit the various EMS news sites (like this one), I have never heard of a cop questioning a paramedic's authority to do what's in the best interest of the patient.
- protomyth 11y ago
  "blue part of the Midwest" I'm in a red part of the Midwest and the cops I know (many friends from HS or cycling in as security at the local workplaces) know when an EMT says "transport", thats it. It helps that some of the EMT's are former cops, but they know the story.
  - msandford 11y ago
    Hilarious that rmxt thinks the police could only be professional in a liberal-leaning area. You know, like the extremely professional folks in Seattle PD, which is also in a blue city in a blue state. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_and_politics_of_Seattle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_and_politics_of_Seat... Oh wait, I was completely wrong about that. http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Feds-findings-in-Seattle-Police-abuse-2407378.php http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Feds-findings-in-Seat... That's not to say that all the people who work for Seattle PD are bad apples that need to be fired. But I'm sure a few of them are, if the whole department is getting investigated by the Justice Department.
    - swdunlop 11y ago
      That Seattle PI article is from 2011; so if the justice department is still investigating.. They need to hurry the hell up. Also, Washington is only a blue state because of Seattle. It would be a swing state at best. You can see the evidence in its state legislature, where it has been in a near state of paralysis for years trying to figure out a budget that will satisfy "starve the beast" conservatives and Seattle's infrastructure needs.
    - rmxt 11y ago
      Maybe I shouldn't have included the "blue" remark in my original comment. Perhaps it's not a red/blue issue, but I do think that there's a geographic component to it. I completely agree that unprofessionalism can and does rear it's head in otherwise quite "blue" urban areas. Maybe it's a mere function of there being more cops in urban areas, and it's just that the bad apples stand out. (i.e., https://xkcd.com/1138/ https://xkcd.com/1138/)
- JeremyMorgan 11y ago
  Yeah I think Oregon in general is "nice" for the most part. We don't have the usual EMS or Fire vs Police thing, nor do we have the career vs volunteer firefighting rivalries I read about either.
- rayiner 11y ago
  Because cops in Chicago never shoot people.
ericcumbee 11y ago
I had always assumed that EMT/LEO was like Star Trek. Where the Captain might have final say in most matters, in regards to medical/health matters the Chief Medical Officer can override the Captain.
- JeremyMorgan 11y ago
  In our area we have a medical director who oversees the entire county, and is surprisingly available for matters like this. If a problem like this were to reach him I am certain a local police department or even police chief wouldn't be able to override him.
  - Domenic_S 11y ago
    Well... literally speaking police have the guns, so they can do whatever they want. That's the point. When minutes matter (like in the case of a stroke) I don't want cops & EMTs fighting with each other. Probably doubtful the police chief would want to get into a media brawl with the county medical director though.
- JshWright 11y ago
  It's complicated... The ranking medical provider on scene is in charge of all aspects of patient care. That seems pretty simple, but then you have to consider the matter of consent... I can't do anything without the informed consent of the patient. When a patient is in police custody, suddenly the state has some say in what that patient can and can't consent to (and the cop is an agent of the state). However... I can't think of a conceivable scenario where a cop would want to assume the liability of disregarding my advice.
  - jrs235 11y ago
    "I can't think of a conceivable scenario where a cop would want to assume the liability of disregarding my advice." What [personal] liability does a cop take on by disregarding your advice? It seems that cops have strong immunity to liability. It also seems that when a cop is found liable that the state/municipality pays the price. Perhaps if police [officers] had to be individually bonded and insured then at least "costly" police would lose their capacity to be officers through market means (insurance and bonding is no longer cost effective).

rmxt 11y ago

I immediately thought..."you must work in Vermont, Oregon, or a blue part of the Midwest, or some place like that." Judging from your profile, looks like I was right. I wish this mentality and culture were more pervasive across the United States. EDIT: My point above was less about a specific "culture of respect for EMS workers", and more about a "culture of respect for non-law enforcement" in general that law enforcement does not always seem to have in the United States. Rethinking, it might not be the red/blue state divide as responders have pointed out. I still do think that there's a geographic component to law enforcement culture. I completely agree that urban areas, though a blue general population, regularly show instances of oppressive police culture. With the above, I was more trying to point out that in those areas there are generally less reports of oppressive and abusive police behavior. However, maybe the effect that I am trying to point out is an illusion of sample size. Either way, I think we would all be in a better place could we extrapolate the small-town police vibe to large urban areas. Yes, it's idealistic, but removing the adversarial relationship between big city PDs and their populations is something worth striving for. https://xkcd.com/1138/ https://xkcd.com/1138/

JshWright 11y ago
Why would that be geographically variable? I'm a paramedic in New York, outside of stories that very occasionally hit the various EMS news sites (like this one), I have never heard of a cop questioning a paramedic's authority to do what's in the best interest of the patient.
protomyth 11y ago
"blue part of the Midwest" I'm in a red part of the Midwest and the cops I know (many friends from HS or cycling in as security at the local workplaces) know when an EMT says "transport", thats it. It helps that some of the EMT's are former cops, but they know the story.
- msandford 11y ago
  Hilarious that rmxt thinks the police could only be professional in a liberal-leaning area. You know, like the extremely professional folks in Seattle PD, which is also in a blue city in a blue state. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_and_politics_of_Seattle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_and_politics_of_Seat... Oh wait, I was completely wrong about that. http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Feds-findings-in-Seattle-Police-abuse-2407378.php http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Feds-findings-in-Seat... That's not to say that all the people who work for Seattle PD are bad apples that need to be fired. But I'm sure a few of them are, if the whole department is getting investigated by the Justice Department.
  - swdunlop 11y ago
    That Seattle PI article is from 2011; so if the justice department is still investigating.. They need to hurry the hell up. Also, Washington is only a blue state because of Seattle. It would be a swing state at best. You can see the evidence in its state legislature, where it has been in a near state of paralysis for years trying to figure out a budget that will satisfy "starve the beast" conservatives and Seattle's infrastructure needs.
  - rmxt 11y ago
    Maybe I shouldn't have included the "blue" remark in my original comment. Perhaps it's not a red/blue issue, but I do think that there's a geographic component to it. I completely agree that unprofessionalism can and does rear it's head in otherwise quite "blue" urban areas. Maybe it's a mere function of there being more cops in urban areas, and it's just that the bad apples stand out. (i.e., https://xkcd.com/1138/ https://xkcd.com/1138/)
JeremyMorgan 11y ago
Yeah I think Oregon in general is "nice" for the most part. We don't have the usual EMS or Fire vs Police thing, nor do we have the career vs volunteer firefighting rivalries I read about either.
rayiner 11y ago
Because cops in Chicago never shoot people.

ericcumbee 11y ago

I had always assumed that EMT/LEO was like Star Trek. Where the Captain might have final say in most matters, in regards to medical/health matters the Chief Medical Officer can override the Captain.

JeremyMorgan 11y ago
In our area we have a medical director who oversees the entire county, and is surprisingly available for matters like this. If a problem like this were to reach him I am certain a local police department or even police chief wouldn't be able to override him.
- Domenic_S 11y ago
  Well... literally speaking police have the guns, so they can do whatever they want. That's the point. When minutes matter (like in the case of a stroke) I don't want cops & EMTs fighting with each other. Probably doubtful the police chief would want to get into a media brawl with the county medical director though.
JshWright 11y ago
It's complicated... The ranking medical provider on scene is in charge of all aspects of patient care. That seems pretty simple, but then you have to consider the matter of consent... I can't do anything without the informed consent of the patient. When a patient is in police custody, suddenly the state has some say in what that patient can and can't consent to (and the cop is an agent of the state). However... I can't think of a conceivable scenario where a cop would want to assume the liability of disregarding my advice.
- jrs235 11y ago
  "I can't think of a conceivable scenario where a cop would want to assume the liability of disregarding my advice." What [personal] liability does a cop take on by disregarding your advice? It seems that cops have strong immunity to liability. It also seems that when a cop is found liable that the state/municipality pays the price. Perhaps if police [officers] had to be individually bonded and insured then at least "costly" police would lose their capacity to be officers through market means (insurance and bonding is no longer cost effective).