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As a German I would suggest to just ask the NSA to leave the country. Additionally, I do not want Gabriel to become chancellor, but I would like to see Merkel a

As a German I would suggest to just ask the NSA to leave the country. Additionally, I do not want Gabriel to become chancellor, but I would like to see Merkel and de Maizière (who already survived a remarkable amount of scandals) getting bitten by this. America is a friend and important to us, but even more are our ties to France and the EU, which should be our number one priority by a large margin. But as soon as you argue in that direction someone from an agency, who wants to play with the big guys and their big toys, comes along and argues how America is critical for our security and how endangered we are and that Germany did not had a terrorist attack yet just because the mighty US of A guards us. If he is good at his job, he manages to slip in the Marshall Plan as well. People seem to believe this, even if they know, how our agencies fail to prevent (non-islamic) terrorism [0] and that it was in fact the police on its own that caught the attempted (islamic) bomber in Frankfurt last week [1]. [0]: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/german-neo-nazi-security-service-scandal http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/german-neo-nazi... [1]: http://news.yahoo.com/report-german-police-conduct-anti-terrorism-raid-detain-103609247.html http://news.yahoo.com/report-german-police-conduct-anti-terr...

mohawk 12y ago
Every time we hear about a new scandal in our German secret services, i await the news of another terrorist cell to be busted. I am rarely disappointed. Cynical me imagines a little cottage industry inside the secret services, always with a small queue of potential terrorists that their handlers can then push further on short notice. These terrorists can then be raided and presented to the public, reinvigorating our fear and making us think that the deep state is the lesser of two evils. And then, after a few weeks, it is back to business as usual.
- junto 12y ago
  The conspiracy nut part of me could also believe that they have a parallel stream of stupid and mentality ill ones that can be used to actually implement 'terrorist' attacks, but are supposed to be both directed, then contained and killed before they can inflict too much damage (or talk afterwards in front of a jury). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Sydney_hostage_crisis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Sydney_hostage_crisis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting#Ch.C3.A9rif_and_Sa.C3.AFd_Kouachi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting#Ch.C3.A9...
  - personlurking 12y ago
    You might want to consider adding James Holmes to that list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Eagan_Holmes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Eagan_Holmes
  - mohawk 12y ago
    Here is some info on the Sauerland cell of 2007 (unfortunately in German): http://www.stern.de/panorama/sauerland-zelle-mutmasslicher-cia-mann-war-der-chef-653678.html http://www.stern.de/panorama/sauerland-zelle-mutmasslicher-c... Quick summary: The person the people in the Sauerland cell called "boss" and who organised the fuses for them was a "contact person" for MİT (Turkish intelligence org.) and CIA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Organization_%28Turkey%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Organiza... Background: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_bomb_plot_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_bomb_plot_in_Germany
  - pantalaimon 12y ago
    Reality may be closer than you think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celle_Hole http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celle_Hole http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oktoberfest_terror_attack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oktoberfest_terror_attack
- personlurking 12y ago
  I knew of a SWAT member of a particular California police dept who said most drug raids (think: medium to large scale) were preceded by a phone call to the person they were going to raid to warn them in advance and to leave at least some drugs and lower level people around for show.
  - fapjacks 12y ago
    I have direct knowledge of at least one instance of this happening in California.
    - madez 12y ago
      Why don't you sue?
      - Intermernet 12y ago
        Would you? That allegation, if true, would open a whole bag of hurt without definite, irrefutable proof. You'd need more than personal experience to push that through the court system. You need full, authenticated documentary evidence, from multiple channels before that charge had an ice-cube's chance in hell of being treated seriously. This is one of the main difficulties of challenging governments in court. The proof of guilt needs to be orders of magnitude above that needed to prove an individual person guilty, as they can always divert the blame to some unknown, undocumented, "unauthorized" section of the staff. Scapegoat found, case dismissed, continue as before.
        madez 12y ago
        Depending on the evidence I had, I probably would sue. The plural of anecdote is data. The important question is: "Data about what?". Sometimes it's data about human psychology, sometimes it points to facts. One complaint without evidence can be overlooked by every judge, but how about two independent? How about five? How about ten? Even if you have nothing but eyewitness testimony, there is much value in filing an official complaint.
happyscrappy 12y ago
If anything Germany is moving closer to the NSA because they want to be part of the five eyes.
mattmcknight 12y ago
I wouldn't be so casual with France. Unlike the NSA, they practice economic/industrial espionage, and they practice it against Germany[1]. http://www.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-espionage-economy-germany-russia-china-business http://www.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-espion...
- bane 12y ago
  And the U.S. http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/02/espionage-moi/ http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/02/espionage-moi/
- badsock 12y ago
  The NSA engages in industrial espionage: http://www.bbc.com/news/25907502 http://www.bbc.com/news/25907502
  - mattmcknight 12y ago
    I believe the key difference here is gathering information on technologies for national security benefit versus gathering information to be used to benefit French businesses.
    - badsock 12y ago
      I think it's naive to trust that the USA is using the NSA's surveillance capabilities for just security and not economic gain: From http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nsa-hacked-email-account-of-mexican-president-a-928817.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nsa-hacked-email-a... "In the space of a single year, according to the internal documents, this operation produced 260 classified reports that allowed US politicians to conduct successful talks on political issues and to plan international investments."
    - CrystalGamma 12y ago
      IIRC there are laws saying that any commercially relevant information obtained by NSA is supposed to be forwarded to domestic businesses.
sergiosgc 12y ago
> ... but even more are our ties to France and the EU, which should be our number one priority by a large margin. I don't think Germany considers the EU as its number one priority. There may be a number of reasons, namely: a) The growth in exports to China; b) The long-term European crisis; c) The notion that EU countries are an already conquered market, with little penetration growth left. Regardless of reasons, Germany's behaviour is clear: The 2011 crisis presented Germany with a unique opportunity to lead Europe. Germany could have financially supported Euro-bonds, leveraging this support to mandate fiscal policy in countries that bought said bonds. This would have effectively placed Germany in a leader role for fiscal policy. Even if this had to formally be done by EU institutions, those with the money have the power. This had virtually no costs for Germany. In a success scenario would be a cash-positive move, as it'd be acting as a development bank: borrowing cheap on one end, lending with a margin on the other, with the added bonus of Euro-wide fiscal policy control. By skipping this clear opportunity, Germany has signaled it is not interested in further developing the EU. I think this is a strategic mistake with a multi-decade horizon. The opportunity presented by the 2011 crisis won't happen again. Worse, there is now the very real scenario that monetary pressures, coupled with a Grexit trigger will breakup the Euro area and really weaken the EU.
spacefight 12y ago
It's not that easy - I think they would need to ask the US military as a whole to leave.
mc32 12y ago
I think you have to understand that lots of people are "conflicted". By that i mean while some people personally might find something tasteless, they never the less can find usefulness and justification, just as long as someone else does the dirty work for them. So, for example, may not have the heart to get a bum vagrant or homeless person from your entrance, but you'd totally be okay if your neighbor or another entity went around making sure the homeless person was shooed somewhere else because you too feel fatigued by the reeking urine at the door to your building. Or, that pest rat. I don't like the idea of animal cruelty, but never the less, please get rid of that rat for me, I don't care how you do it, just don't tell me. I just don't want to see it again. So that is to say, one might not like some things, but we're okay, so long as someone else gets their hands dirty in our stead. Just don't let me know the dirty details and embarrass me or my conscience.

mohawk 12y ago

Every time we hear about a new scandal in our German secret services, i await the news of another terrorist cell to be busted. I am rarely disappointed. Cynical me imagines a little cottage industry inside the secret services, always with a small queue of potential terrorists that their handlers can then push further on short notice. These terrorists can then be raided and presented to the public, reinvigorating our fear and making us think that the deep state is the lesser of two evils. And then, after a few weeks, it is back to business as usual.

junto 12y ago
The conspiracy nut part of me could also believe that they have a parallel stream of stupid and mentality ill ones that can be used to actually implement 'terrorist' attacks, but are supposed to be both directed, then contained and killed before they can inflict too much damage (or talk afterwards in front of a jury). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Sydney_hostage_crisis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Sydney_hostage_crisis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting#Ch.C3.A9rif_and_Sa.C3.AFd_Kouachi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting#Ch.C3.A9...
- personlurking 12y ago
  You might want to consider adding James Holmes to that list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Eagan_Holmes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Eagan_Holmes
- mohawk 12y ago
  Here is some info on the Sauerland cell of 2007 (unfortunately in German): http://www.stern.de/panorama/sauerland-zelle-mutmasslicher-cia-mann-war-der-chef-653678.html http://www.stern.de/panorama/sauerland-zelle-mutmasslicher-c... Quick summary: The person the people in the Sauerland cell called "boss" and who organised the fuses for them was a "contact person" for MİT (Turkish intelligence org.) and CIA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Organization_%28Turkey%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Organiza... Background: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_bomb_plot_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_bomb_plot_in_Germany
- pantalaimon 12y ago
  Reality may be closer than you think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celle_Hole http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celle_Hole http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oktoberfest_terror_attack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oktoberfest_terror_attack
personlurking 12y ago
I knew of a SWAT member of a particular California police dept who said most drug raids (think: medium to large scale) were preceded by a phone call to the person they were going to raid to warn them in advance and to leave at least some drugs and lower level people around for show.
- fapjacks 12y ago
  I have direct knowledge of at least one instance of this happening in California.
  - madez 12y ago
    Why don't you sue?
    - Intermernet 12y ago
      Would you? That allegation, if true, would open a whole bag of hurt without definite, irrefutable proof. You'd need more than personal experience to push that through the court system. You need full, authenticated documentary evidence, from multiple channels before that charge had an ice-cube's chance in hell of being treated seriously. This is one of the main difficulties of challenging governments in court. The proof of guilt needs to be orders of magnitude above that needed to prove an individual person guilty, as they can always divert the blame to some unknown, undocumented, "unauthorized" section of the staff. Scapegoat found, case dismissed, continue as before.
      - madez 12y ago
        Depending on the evidence I had, I probably would sue. The plural of anecdote is data. The important question is: "Data about what?". Sometimes it's data about human psychology, sometimes it points to facts. One complaint without evidence can be overlooked by every judge, but how about two independent? How about five? How about ten? Even if you have nothing but eyewitness testimony, there is much value in filing an official complaint.

happyscrappy 12y ago

If anything Germany is moving closer to the NSA because they want to be part of the five eyes.

mattmcknight 12y ago

I wouldn't be so casual with France. Unlike the NSA, they practice economic/industrial espionage, and they practice it against Germany[1]. http://www.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-espionage-economy-germany-russia-china-business http://www.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-espion...

bane 12y ago
And the U.S. http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/02/espionage-moi/ http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/02/espionage-moi/
badsock 12y ago
The NSA engages in industrial espionage: http://www.bbc.com/news/25907502 http://www.bbc.com/news/25907502
- mattmcknight 12y ago
  I believe the key difference here is gathering information on technologies for national security benefit versus gathering information to be used to benefit French businesses.
  - badsock 12y ago
    I think it's naive to trust that the USA is using the NSA's surveillance capabilities for just security and not economic gain: From http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nsa-hacked-email-account-of-mexican-president-a-928817.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nsa-hacked-email-a... "In the space of a single year, according to the internal documents, this operation produced 260 classified reports that allowed US politicians to conduct successful talks on political issues and to plan international investments."
  - CrystalGamma 12y ago
    IIRC there are laws saying that any commercially relevant information obtained by NSA is supposed to be forwarded to domestic businesses.

sergiosgc 12y ago

> ... but even more are our ties to France and the EU, which should be our number one priority by a large margin. I don't think Germany considers the EU as its number one priority. There may be a number of reasons, namely: a) The growth in exports to China; b) The long-term European crisis; c) The notion that EU countries are an already conquered market, with little penetration growth left. Regardless of reasons, Germany's behaviour is clear: The 2011 crisis presented Germany with a unique opportunity to lead Europe. Germany could have financially supported Euro-bonds, leveraging this support to mandate fiscal policy in countries that bought said bonds. This would have effectively placed Germany in a leader role for fiscal policy. Even if this had to formally be done by EU institutions, those with the money have the power. This had virtually no costs for Germany. In a success scenario would be a cash-positive move, as it'd be acting as a development bank: borrowing cheap on one end, lending with a margin on the other, with the added bonus of Euro-wide fiscal policy control. By skipping this clear opportunity, Germany has signaled it is not interested in further developing the EU. I think this is a strategic mistake with a multi-decade horizon. The opportunity presented by the 2011 crisis won't happen again. Worse, there is now the very real scenario that monetary pressures, coupled with a Grexit trigger will breakup the Euro area and really weaken the EU.

spacefight 12y ago

It's not that easy - I think they would need to ask the US military as a whole to leave.

mc32 12y ago

I think you have to understand that lots of people are "conflicted". By that i mean while some people personally might find something tasteless, they never the less can find usefulness and justification, just as long as someone else does the dirty work for them. So, for example, may not have the heart to get a bum vagrant or homeless person from your entrance, but you'd totally be okay if your neighbor or another entity went around making sure the homeless person was shooed somewhere else because you too feel fatigued by the reeking urine at the door to your building. Or, that pest rat. I don't like the idea of animal cruelty, but never the less, please get rid of that rat for me, I don't care how you do it, just don't tell me. I just don't want to see it again. So that is to say, one might not like some things, but we're okay, so long as someone else gets their hands dirty in our stead. Just don't let me know the dirty details and embarrass me or my conscience.