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> instead of waving your fist at the NSA from across the ocean You still don't understand. The NSA is here. In my country. With huge installations. Officially

by lispm 12y ago

> instead of waving your fist at the NSA from across the ocean You still don't understand. The NSA is here. In my country. With huge installations. Officially. Together with the CIA and US military. Example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger_Complex http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger_Complex We even paid partly for it(!). Time for them to go home.

antimagic 12y ago
I do understand. My country (Australia) has US spy bases in it too ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Gap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Gap ), which they have also used to spy on Australians. In Australia's case (and I would be willing to bet that it's the same for Germany), it was a quid pro quo arrangement. Australians spy on Americans and pass the information to the NSA. Americans spy on Australians and pass it to the Australian spy agencies - thereby avoiding restrictions on domestic spying. Seriously, your problem is with the BND, not NSA, because NSA is going to spy on you regardless of whether you want them to. It's pretty much their job. You just don't want the BND actively helping them, which is why your energy should be directed towards them.
- lispm 12y ago
  I want the NSA to leave Germany. They can spy where they want, but not from within Germany.
  - happyscrappy 12y ago
    You may want to talk to your government about that as they are the ones enabling it.
  - madez 12y ago
    If you are German, the NSA likely won't listen to you. The German government is responsible for the presence of the NSA and it has the means to largely end NSA activities in Germany, but not the will.
filoeleven 12y ago
That's not all the US is doing in Deutschland. "[T]he slides show that the facilities at Ramstein perform an essential function in lethal drone strikes conducted by the CIA and the U.S. military in the Middle East, Afghanistan and Africa."[0] So it is not just spying on the EU that is being enabled by Germany's government, it is the entirety of the US drone program that is being used across the Middle East and north Africa. This program, operating as it does outside of declared war zones, is very probably illegal under German law. [0]https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/04/17/ramstein/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/04/17/ramstein/
- germanier 12y ago
  > This program, operating as it does outside of declared war zones, is very probably illegal under German law. I highly doubt that as most German laws don't apply to US military stationed inside Germany (SOFA exemptions).

by lispm 12y ago

antimagic 12y ago

I do understand. My country (Australia) has US spy bases in it too ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Gap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Gap ), which they have also used to spy on Australians. In Australia's case (and I would be willing to bet that it's the same for Germany), it was a quid pro quo arrangement. Australians spy on Americans and pass the information to the NSA. Americans spy on Australians and pass it to the Australian spy agencies - thereby avoiding restrictions on domestic spying. Seriously, your problem is with the BND, not NSA, because NSA is going to spy on you regardless of whether you want them to. It's pretty much their job. You just don't want the BND actively helping them, which is why your energy should be directed towards them.

lispm 12y ago
I want the NSA to leave Germany. They can spy where they want, but not from within Germany.
- happyscrappy 12y ago
  You may want to talk to your government about that as they are the ones enabling it.
- madez 12y ago
  If you are German, the NSA likely won't listen to you. The German government is responsible for the presence of the NSA and it has the means to largely end NSA activities in Germany, but not the will.

filoeleven 12y ago

That's not all the US is doing in Deutschland. "[T]he slides show that the facilities at Ramstein perform an essential function in lethal drone strikes conducted by the CIA and the U.S. military in the Middle East, Afghanistan and Africa."[0] So it is not just spying on the EU that is being enabled by Germany's government, it is the entirety of the US drone program that is being used across the Middle East and north Africa. This program, operating as it does outside of declared war zones, is very probably illegal under German law. [0]https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/04/17/ramstein/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/04/17/ramstein/

germanier 12y ago
> This program, operating as it does outside of declared war zones, is very probably illegal under German law. I highly doubt that as most German laws don't apply to US military stationed inside Germany (SOFA exemptions).