5 ms·

The sad thing is, in Germany the public doesn't really seem to care. They are still the same nation that follows allong blindly until the shit is hitting the fa

by emsy 12y ago

The sad thing is, in Germany the public doesn't really seem to care. They are still the same nation that follows allong blindly until the shit is hitting the fan. Of course, when the crash comes, the responsibility will be delegated upwards.

lawl 12y ago
I think it's that way everywhere. When I talked to people about it in Switzerland they often respond with something like "this isn't a problem here, this is $country_where_i_live_in they wouldn't abuse their powers. The NSA? Sure THEY are horrible, but in $country_where_i_live_in, nah, they wouldn't do stuff like that. That's impossible." You can point out that the last time they did (and got caught) was only 26 years ago [0]. They don't care. I'm not sure there's anything we can do about it. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_files_scandal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_files_scandal
bayesianhorse 12y ago
What "shit" is hitting what "fan"? We're not following blindly. Far from it. There is a big conversation going on and the government might fall over this incident.
- junto 12y ago
  There is a local election on Sunday in Bremen (state level): http://www.wahlrecht.de/termine.htm http://www.wahlrecht.de/termine.htm It will certainly be interesting to see if this scandal is of any importance to the voters.
  - bayesianhorse 12y ago
    I sure hope not. Nobody running in that election has anything to do with the scandal, but there sure are candidates which could harm Bremen a lot in the coming few years.
    - junto 12y ago
      Out of interest, any in particular worth noting as dangerous?
      - bayesianhorse 12y ago
        I did not mean dangerous in terms of dictatorship or something like that, more in the terms of doing a very very bad job. There was the Schill Party in Hamburg, which comes to mind. Small party, got elected on tough speech alone, then went on to fail miserably. The AfD is running in Bremen, as is "Die Linke". Both could be a disaster waiting to happen.
- emsy 12y ago
  It's important to note that if the government will fall, it's not because of the citizens, but because of the opposition. This is not the first controversy the government faces after the Snowden relevations, yet the CDU doesn't seem to lose voters over this.
yAnonymous 12y ago
Germans care more than Americans. The U.S. have basically turned into an oligarchy and its citizens have done absolutely nothing. The U.S. are the main problem here. So, assuming you are American, clean up your own mess before blaming others.
DasIch 12y ago
The problem is that there are more issues than that and overall at least comparatively Germany is doing rather well at the moment. Our current government consists of a large coalition between the SPD and the CDU/CSU. A government in which neither of these parties take part would be a massive practically unthinkable shift. No matter how much you care about this issue -- and keep in mind the majority doesn't really care about any issue enough to vote -- doing anything about it comes with a very high risk. So no matter how much we may dislike the BND situation, nothing about it is going to change simply because there is no other party that can both be trusted to change anything about it and successfully run the government.
- emsy 12y ago
  I totally agree! But does economical success outweigh political failings on this scale? I mean even if people don't want to vote for another party, there are other means to be heard. Yet the citizens remain largely silent over this issue.
mcbetz 12y ago
Do you have any proof for this bold claim? I will try to prove that quite the opposite is true: Germany has a very active civil society and privacy ("Datenschutz") and transparency is on the agenda not only of the opposition party "Die Grünen" and the small "Piratenpartei", but also by organizations such as Chaos Computer Club, Netzpolitik.org and Verbraucherzentrale. There have been huge demonstrations, "Freiheit statt Angst" (Freedom instead of fear), with thousands demonstrating in Berlin and elsewhere. You can find all material on their website, also in English - http://freiheitstattangst.de/aufruf/ http://freiheitstattangst.de/aufruf/
- kpcyrd 12y ago
  > But they don't have my password to access my email? > I have nothing to hide > Why do you run a tor relay? Somebody who needs that much privacy obviously has something bad going on. Of course there are exceptions who actually care about that stuff, but I'm afraid most don't or have no idea what they're doing. Source: CDU is still the strongest party.
  - mcbetz 12y ago
    The exception is institutionalized: Der Verbraucherschutz and the various Datenschutzbeauftragte keep complaining whenever the ruling parties try to weaken the privacy laws. And the outrage about password leaks and other data security related news in all publications, be them more right-leaning like the FAZ or Welt, or left-leaning, such as TAZ, Spiegel or Frankfurter Rundschua, prove, that there is consciousness and interest. Media does not write about random things. They write for their audience. Hence there must be many people who care. Pointing to CDU is also not very convincing. Despite having the weakest position among all parties, they still support privacy issues, especially due to their close relations with German companies. And yes, those care a lot about privacy. There is massive outrage about the latest relevations - Airbus already declared they would sue Germany over this. See here for CDU's privacy claims: https://www.tagesschau.de/europawahl/parteien_und_programme/programmvergleich-datenschutz106.html https://www.tagesschau.de/europawahl/parteien_und_programme/... (DE)
- thesimon 12y ago

by emsy 12y ago

lawl 12y ago

I think it's that way everywhere. When I talked to people about it in Switzerland they often respond with something like "this isn't a problem here, this is $country_where_i_live_in they wouldn't abuse their powers. The NSA? Sure THEY are horrible, but in $country_where_i_live_in, nah, they wouldn't do stuff like that. That's impossible." You can point out that the last time they did (and got caught) was only 26 years ago [0]. They don't care. I'm not sure there's anything we can do about it. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_files_scandal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_files_scandal

bayesianhorse 12y ago

What "shit" is hitting what "fan"? We're not following blindly. Far from it. There is a big conversation going on and the government might fall over this incident.

junto 12y ago
There is a local election on Sunday in Bremen (state level): http://www.wahlrecht.de/termine.htm http://www.wahlrecht.de/termine.htm It will certainly be interesting to see if this scandal is of any importance to the voters.
- bayesianhorse 12y ago
  I sure hope not. Nobody running in that election has anything to do with the scandal, but there sure are candidates which could harm Bremen a lot in the coming few years.
  - junto 12y ago
    Out of interest, any in particular worth noting as dangerous?
    - bayesianhorse 12y ago
      I did not mean dangerous in terms of dictatorship or something like that, more in the terms of doing a very very bad job. There was the Schill Party in Hamburg, which comes to mind. Small party, got elected on tough speech alone, then went on to fail miserably. The AfD is running in Bremen, as is "Die Linke". Both could be a disaster waiting to happen.
emsy 12y ago
It's important to note that if the government will fall, it's not because of the citizens, but because of the opposition. This is not the first controversy the government faces after the Snowden relevations, yet the CDU doesn't seem to lose voters over this.

yAnonymous 12y ago

Germans care more than Americans. The U.S. have basically turned into an oligarchy and its citizens have done absolutely nothing. The U.S. are the main problem here. So, assuming you are American, clean up your own mess before blaming others.

DasIch 12y ago

The problem is that there are more issues than that and overall at least comparatively Germany is doing rather well at the moment. Our current government consists of a large coalition between the SPD and the CDU/CSU. A government in which neither of these parties take part would be a massive practically unthinkable shift. No matter how much you care about this issue -- and keep in mind the majority doesn't really care about any issue enough to vote -- doing anything about it comes with a very high risk. So no matter how much we may dislike the BND situation, nothing about it is going to change simply because there is no other party that can both be trusted to change anything about it and successfully run the government.

emsy 12y ago
I totally agree! But does economical success outweigh political failings on this scale? I mean even if people don't want to vote for another party, there are other means to be heard. Yet the citizens remain largely silent over this issue.

mcbetz 12y ago

Do you have any proof for this bold claim? I will try to prove that quite the opposite is true: Germany has a very active civil society and privacy ("Datenschutz") and transparency is on the agenda not only of the opposition party "Die Grünen" and the small "Piratenpartei", but also by organizations such as Chaos Computer Club, Netzpolitik.org and Verbraucherzentrale. There have been huge demonstrations, "Freiheit statt Angst" (Freedom instead of fear), with thousands demonstrating in Berlin and elsewhere. You can find all material on their website, also in English - http://freiheitstattangst.de/aufruf/ http://freiheitstattangst.de/aufruf/

kpcyrd 12y ago
> But they don't have my password to access my email? > I have nothing to hide > Why do you run a tor relay? Somebody who needs that much privacy obviously has something bad going on. Of course there are exceptions who actually care about that stuff, but I'm afraid most don't or have no idea what they're doing. Source: CDU is still the strongest party.
- mcbetz 12y ago
  The exception is institutionalized: Der Verbraucherschutz and the various Datenschutzbeauftragte keep complaining whenever the ruling parties try to weaken the privacy laws. And the outrage about password leaks and other data security related news in all publications, be them more right-leaning like the FAZ or Welt, or left-leaning, such as TAZ, Spiegel or Frankfurter Rundschua, prove, that there is consciousness and interest. Media does not write about random things. They write for their audience. Hence there must be many people who care. Pointing to CDU is also not very convincing. Despite having the weakest position among all parties, they still support privacy issues, especially due to their close relations with German companies. And yes, those care a lot about privacy. There is massive outrage about the latest relevations - Airbus already declared they would sue Germany over this. See here for CDU's privacy claims: https://www.tagesschau.de/europawahl/parteien_und_programme/programmvergleich-datenschutz106.html https://www.tagesschau.de/europawahl/parteien_und_programme/... (DE)
thesimon 12y ago