6 ms·

Of course they did. It's the explicit job of these organizations (in all countries) to spy on foreign powers, multi-national companies, and potential people tha

Of course they did. It's the explicit job of these organizations (in all countries) to spy on foreign powers, multi-national companies, and potential people that may be a threat. We spy on our best allies and you'd better believe they spy on us. We just happen to have the evidence of the US doing it thanks to Snowden. It may not be right but they all do it. Edit: Really? Down voted for saying that most countries probably do this? I'm not saying its right, just that it's not particularly surprising.

13 11y ago
I don't understand anybody using that as justification. Why is that necessary? We live in a pretty miserable world if your only answer is "because everyone else is doing it".
- tomschlick 11y ago
  I think its a "trust but verify" mentality. You know that your neighbor is probably trust worthy but you still keep tabs on them to make sure they are not secretly planning something against you. The issue you have with stopping yourself is that your neighbor may still be doing so, and I'd imagine from a nation's perspective its crucial to have the same kind of info on them that others have on you.
  - 13 11y ago
    To me that sounds like no trust at all.
  - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
    "trust but verify" is an old Russian proverb and was Reagan's line that he used to refer to the USSR WRT a nuclear disarmament treaty. Are we treating the Germans like the old USSR now? Is having an unfair advantage in commerce as important as knowing where are all of the nuclear missiles that are aimed at us? I think it is somewhat less "crucial" than you appear to think; and I think that "because fuck you, that's why" is the foreign policy of a thug.
    - tomschlick 11y ago
      If it's apparently less crucial than I think then why do most major governments have clandestine intelligence services whose sole purpose is to spy on other nations?
      - saiya-jin 11y ago
        Just because you have some paranoid fuckups in your government doesn't mean you should give them all powers unchecked, right? Like all else in hierarchical structures, there should be some proper oversight and control, by unbiased authorities (well, it would be nice at least). Problem seems to be, these services run at free will, they feel above law and constitution, justifying just about everything with "terrorist threat" mantra. Politicians seems weak/corrupt so they don't stand for common citizen's rights. Somebody from Obama's government expressed frustration once how all these services/programs/activities run basically on autopilot, and nobody dares to cut their budget. Let's take a step back... does anybody truly believe current terrorism can shake foundations of any western society? I don't mean blowing hypothetical nukes in manhattan, but real things that happened. Planes falling, buildings collapsing, very sad events, but nothing major in civilization perspective. Our perception of these events is hugely disproportionate, based on our fears. Yet we are, step by step, losing our freedom like the alternative would be total annihilation and end of the world as we know it. Not even terrorist themselves want that. And they are not winning in any measurable way. It's natural for any ambitious organisational unit, with strong leader, to try to grab all power, influence etc that's available. Normal comapnies have strict boundaries how far the power can reach, so for example you won't find a single bank that is effectively run by it's head of IT, in fact in contrary (IT is a true backoffice, in the back of the back of the back of the rest). Just set the boundaries and enforce them with budget cuts threat. Now who will do that is the question :)
        13 11y ago
        On a statistical side almost anything else is likely to kill you. There's probably more people killed each year by ladders than some perceived external threat, and I don't see a war on ladders happening anywhere.
- bayesianhorse 11y ago
  I do believe intelligence services are necessary. Essentially a government has two different sources of information: the overt sources, and the covert sources. Both have their problems. The overt sources are easy for adversaries (in a very broad sense) to manipulate and observe. The covert sources have the inherent problem that less oversight usually means incompetence and abuse.
junto 11y ago
I think it is the complicity of the BND on behalf of the US that has got Germans annoyed, as well as asking a German spy agency to spy on, and feed information on German companies, to the detriment of those companies in favour of US companies. Germans are just starting to realize that they are as much a US poodle as the Brits across the pond.
- tomschlick 11y ago
  Agreed. I'd imagine most of the close allies have cooperated in this fashion at some point. They just don't talk about it for fear of public backlash.
- lispm 11y ago
  There is nothing to realize. That's known for a long time. Other than GB we have been occupied by the US, we have large US installations here - including the US military central commands for Europe and Africa (!). The situation is understandable, because Germany caused and lost WWII. But after 70 years since the war has ended, many Germans wish that the US stops using Germany as tool.
  - tormeh 11y ago
    With the amount that Germany spends on defence, subjugating the entire defense and intelligence community to the US might be the optimal strategy. Defence may be like Facebook - if you won't pay cash you'll have to pay in other ways.
    - lispm 11y ago
      > With the amount that Germany spends on defence Germany is one of the top defense spending countries. You may check also a map. Germany is surrounded by friends. Germany also doesn't have an empire to maintain. We have spend billions on useless adventures like in Afghanistan. Luckily Germany was not stupid enough to take part in other adventures: Iraq, Libya, ... That the US decides to spend as much as the next twenty countries together is only their problem. But the US politics has made parts of the world a very unsafe place. Check the US politics in north-africa and middle east: toppling regimes and trying to install new regimes. This has created a huge mess and creates problems throughout the region. The rise of ISIS/IS is one of those results.
lispm 11y ago
You have no clue. The BND helped the NSA to spy on GERMANS and GERMAN companies. Plus EUROPEANs. It's not the job of the BND to help the NSA to spy on Germany and the EU. > We spy on our best allies and you'd better believe they spy on us. We just happen to have the evidence of the US doing it thanks to Snowden. Look, the difference is this: we have literally THOUSANDS of NSA, CIA and US military agency personal in Germany. There are huge official installations of the NSA, the CIA and US military in Germany. Instead of respecting the host country, they are spying on us, collecting data, manage their wars, disrespecting our laws, ... There is nothing, absolutely NOTHING, even remotely comparable done by Germany in or around the US.
- tomschlick 11y ago
  > The BND helped the NSA to spy on GERMANS and GERMAN companies. Didn't know that part. Thats an interesting twist. I could understand them working together against someone else but not against themselves. Must be part of that "Five eyes" cooperation thing Snowden was talking about.
  - DyslexicAtheist 11y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundestrojaner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundestrojaner
  - lispm 11y ago
    German companies are very unhappy. http://www.dw.de/airbus-to-press-charges-on-nsa-bnd-spying-claims/a-18422548 http://www.dw.de/airbus-to-press-charges-on-nsa-bnd-spying-c... Airbus has both civilian and military development and production in Germany.
    - junto 11y ago
      If I understand this correctly, Boeing (US) and Airbus (EU) are competing head to head for extremely valuable contracts. The NSA tasks the BND to spy on Airbus employees and the company in order to maintain Boeing's competitive edge over Airbus. In doing so, threatening the jobs of fellow Germans (and other Europeans). Is that more or less what has been going on?
bad_user 11y ago
We are talking about governments spying on their own citizens and not on other countries. And I find it incredible that opinions such as yours are so prevalent. Because yes, it should be surprising, as this happens with governments that we elected and that should serve us and our rights. And when this happens too often with no relief in sight, it usually means that we need a revolution. The NSA revelations are actively hurting USA's economy. You may not see it, but European companies have started to actively avoid US-made and US-hosted products and services, because guess what, people do care about it, especially companies that are increasingly worried about industrial espionage from American companies. Therefore I usually think of shilling when seeing such pieces of opinion, because it's easy to gather a bunch of trolls to try and shift the public opinion by posting such messages on public forums - I know that at least the Chinese and the Israelis are doing it. But then I think of Occam's Razor and remember that people are in essence just sheep wanting to be shepherd.
- tomschlick 11y ago
  > And I find it incredible that opinions such as yours are so prevalent. I would have been surprised pre-snowden. But after reading what he released and watching Citizen Four I wouldn't put anything past them at this point.
- Amezarak 11y ago
  > The NSA revelations are actively hurting USA's economy. You may not see it, but European companies have started to actively avoid US-made and US-hosted products and services, because guess what, people do care about it, especially companies that are increasingly worried about industrial espionage from American companies. Who are they buying from, then? All of Europe is spying on each other. German companies even refer to France as the "evil empire" of industrial espionage - not the USA. And of course many other countries like China are also spying. When I hear European politicians lobbying for local hosting services and the like, I think it in part has much more to do with getting more negotiating power at the international surveillance table. NSA had hooks directly into various services that other countries had to bargain with the NSA for, if they can get services hosted in their own countries, they can be the go-to organization and have more bargaining chips.
fromtheoutside 11y ago
I have partly to agree, nobody cares if you spy on their citizens. However, once you can prove industrial espionage it becomes a totally different discussion.
nl 11y ago
You are downvoted because you haven't read the article. The outrage is because they help the NSA spy on German politicians and companies, against the interests of Germany.
rbehrends 11y ago
The point is not that the BND spied. The BND broke the law and then lied to the German Parliament about it. That's what the outrage is about. Germany has a law regulating surveillance (the G10 Act). It has a number of safeguards to prevent indiscriminate and illegal spying. As far as I know, the BND illegally ignored several of them. Being a spy agency doesn't mean that you're outside the law.
- tomschlick 11y ago
  I see that now. I originally missed that they were helping spy on their own citizens vs just other EU nations.
  - rbehrends 11y ago
    Spying on other EU nations is not any better. There are strict rules that target selectors used for mass surveillance must obey. Any target selector must be related to the prevention of one of the following: 1. An attack against German territory (i.e. war). 2. International terrorist attacks related to Germany. 3. International arms trafficking. 4. Drug smuggling as part of organized crime. 5. Endangering the stability of the Euro through counterfeiting activities abroad. 6. International money laundering at a large scale. 7. Human trafficking. Mass surveillance by the BND for purposes outside of these seven areas is not allowed, period; any personal data intercepted that is not related to these areas must be deleted. Most of the target selectors provided by the NSA to the BND did not fall into any of these areas.
    - tomschlick 11y ago
      Which is probably why they used the NSA to do it. NSA spies on the people and hand the Germans the data. Germans don't technically breach their own laws and both get the intel. Scary as fuck for our privacy.

13 11y ago

I don't understand anybody using that as justification. Why is that necessary? We live in a pretty miserable world if your only answer is "because everyone else is doing it".

tomschlick 11y ago
I think its a "trust but verify" mentality. You know that your neighbor is probably trust worthy but you still keep tabs on them to make sure they are not secretly planning something against you. The issue you have with stopping yourself is that your neighbor may still be doing so, and I'd imagine from a nation's perspective its crucial to have the same kind of info on them that others have on you.
- 13 11y ago
  To me that sounds like no trust at all.
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  "trust but verify" is an old Russian proverb and was Reagan's line that he used to refer to the USSR WRT a nuclear disarmament treaty. Are we treating the Germans like the old USSR now? Is having an unfair advantage in commerce as important as knowing where are all of the nuclear missiles that are aimed at us? I think it is somewhat less "crucial" than you appear to think; and I think that "because fuck you, that's why" is the foreign policy of a thug.
  - tomschlick 11y ago
    If it's apparently less crucial than I think then why do most major governments have clandestine intelligence services whose sole purpose is to spy on other nations?
    - saiya-jin 11y ago
      Just because you have some paranoid fuckups in your government doesn't mean you should give them all powers unchecked, right? Like all else in hierarchical structures, there should be some proper oversight and control, by unbiased authorities (well, it would be nice at least). Problem seems to be, these services run at free will, they feel above law and constitution, justifying just about everything with "terrorist threat" mantra. Politicians seems weak/corrupt so they don't stand for common citizen's rights. Somebody from Obama's government expressed frustration once how all these services/programs/activities run basically on autopilot, and nobody dares to cut their budget. Let's take a step back... does anybody truly believe current terrorism can shake foundations of any western society? I don't mean blowing hypothetical nukes in manhattan, but real things that happened. Planes falling, buildings collapsing, very sad events, but nothing major in civilization perspective. Our perception of these events is hugely disproportionate, based on our fears. Yet we are, step by step, losing our freedom like the alternative would be total annihilation and end of the world as we know it. Not even terrorist themselves want that. And they are not winning in any measurable way. It's natural for any ambitious organisational unit, with strong leader, to try to grab all power, influence etc that's available. Normal comapnies have strict boundaries how far the power can reach, so for example you won't find a single bank that is effectively run by it's head of IT, in fact in contrary (IT is a true backoffice, in the back of the back of the back of the rest). Just set the boundaries and enforce them with budget cuts threat. Now who will do that is the question :)
      - 13 11y ago
        On a statistical side almost anything else is likely to kill you. There's probably more people killed each year by ladders than some perceived external threat, and I don't see a war on ladders happening anywhere.
bayesianhorse 11y ago
I do believe intelligence services are necessary. Essentially a government has two different sources of information: the overt sources, and the covert sources. Both have their problems. The overt sources are easy for adversaries (in a very broad sense) to manipulate and observe. The covert sources have the inherent problem that less oversight usually means incompetence and abuse.

junto 11y ago

I think it is the complicity of the BND on behalf of the US that has got Germans annoyed, as well as asking a German spy agency to spy on, and feed information on German companies, to the detriment of those companies in favour of US companies. Germans are just starting to realize that they are as much a US poodle as the Brits across the pond.

tomschlick 11y ago
Agreed. I'd imagine most of the close allies have cooperated in this fashion at some point. They just don't talk about it for fear of public backlash.
lispm 11y ago
There is nothing to realize. That's known for a long time. Other than GB we have been occupied by the US, we have large US installations here - including the US military central commands for Europe and Africa (!). The situation is understandable, because Germany caused and lost WWII. But after 70 years since the war has ended, many Germans wish that the US stops using Germany as tool.
- tormeh 11y ago
  With the amount that Germany spends on defence, subjugating the entire defense and intelligence community to the US might be the optimal strategy. Defence may be like Facebook - if you won't pay cash you'll have to pay in other ways.
  - lispm 11y ago
    > With the amount that Germany spends on defence Germany is one of the top defense spending countries. You may check also a map. Germany is surrounded by friends. Germany also doesn't have an empire to maintain. We have spend billions on useless adventures like in Afghanistan. Luckily Germany was not stupid enough to take part in other adventures: Iraq, Libya, ... That the US decides to spend as much as the next twenty countries together is only their problem. But the US politics has made parts of the world a very unsafe place. Check the US politics in north-africa and middle east: toppling regimes and trying to install new regimes. This has created a huge mess and creates problems throughout the region. The rise of ISIS/IS is one of those results.

lispm 11y ago

You have no clue. The BND helped the NSA to spy on GERMANS and GERMAN companies. Plus EUROPEANs. It's not the job of the BND to help the NSA to spy on Germany and the EU. > We spy on our best allies and you'd better believe they spy on us. We just happen to have the evidence of the US doing it thanks to Snowden. Look, the difference is this: we have literally THOUSANDS of NSA, CIA and US military agency personal in Germany. There are huge official installations of the NSA, the CIA and US military in Germany. Instead of respecting the host country, they are spying on us, collecting data, manage their wars, disrespecting our laws, ... There is nothing, absolutely NOTHING, even remotely comparable done by Germany in or around the US.

tomschlick 11y ago
> The BND helped the NSA to spy on GERMANS and GERMAN companies. Didn't know that part. Thats an interesting twist. I could understand them working together against someone else but not against themselves. Must be part of that "Five eyes" cooperation thing Snowden was talking about.
- DyslexicAtheist 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundestrojaner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundestrojaner
- lispm 11y ago
  German companies are very unhappy. http://www.dw.de/airbus-to-press-charges-on-nsa-bnd-spying-claims/a-18422548 http://www.dw.de/airbus-to-press-charges-on-nsa-bnd-spying-c... Airbus has both civilian and military development and production in Germany.
  - junto 11y ago
    If I understand this correctly, Boeing (US) and Airbus (EU) are competing head to head for extremely valuable contracts. The NSA tasks the BND to spy on Airbus employees and the company in order to maintain Boeing's competitive edge over Airbus. In doing so, threatening the jobs of fellow Germans (and other Europeans). Is that more or less what has been going on?

bad_user 11y ago

We are talking about governments spying on their own citizens and not on other countries. And I find it incredible that opinions such as yours are so prevalent. Because yes, it should be surprising, as this happens with governments that we elected and that should serve us and our rights. And when this happens too often with no relief in sight, it usually means that we need a revolution. The NSA revelations are actively hurting USA's economy. You may not see it, but European companies have started to actively avoid US-made and US-hosted products and services, because guess what, people do care about it, especially companies that are increasingly worried about industrial espionage from American companies. Therefore I usually think of shilling when seeing such pieces of opinion, because it's easy to gather a bunch of trolls to try and shift the public opinion by posting such messages on public forums - I know that at least the Chinese and the Israelis are doing it. But then I think of Occam's Razor and remember that people are in essence just sheep wanting to be shepherd.

tomschlick 11y ago
> And I find it incredible that opinions such as yours are so prevalent. I would have been surprised pre-snowden. But after reading what he released and watching Citizen Four I wouldn't put anything past them at this point.
Amezarak 11y ago
> The NSA revelations are actively hurting USA's economy. You may not see it, but European companies have started to actively avoid US-made and US-hosted products and services, because guess what, people do care about it, especially companies that are increasingly worried about industrial espionage from American companies. Who are they buying from, then? All of Europe is spying on each other. German companies even refer to France as the "evil empire" of industrial espionage - not the USA. And of course many other countries like China are also spying. When I hear European politicians lobbying for local hosting services and the like, I think it in part has much more to do with getting more negotiating power at the international surveillance table. NSA had hooks directly into various services that other countries had to bargain with the NSA for, if they can get services hosted in their own countries, they can be the go-to organization and have more bargaining chips.

fromtheoutside 11y ago

I have partly to agree, nobody cares if you spy on their citizens. However, once you can prove industrial espionage it becomes a totally different discussion.

nl 11y ago

You are downvoted because you haven't read the article. The outrage is because they help the NSA spy on German politicians and companies, against the interests of Germany.

rbehrends 11y ago

The point is not that the BND spied. The BND broke the law and then lied to the German Parliament about it. That's what the outrage is about. Germany has a law regulating surveillance (the G10 Act). It has a number of safeguards to prevent indiscriminate and illegal spying. As far as I know, the BND illegally ignored several of them. Being a spy agency doesn't mean that you're outside the law.

tomschlick 11y ago
I see that now. I originally missed that they were helping spy on their own citizens vs just other EU nations.
- rbehrends 11y ago
  Spying on other EU nations is not any better. There are strict rules that target selectors used for mass surveillance must obey. Any target selector must be related to the prevention of one of the following: 1. An attack against German territory (i.e. war). 2. International terrorist attacks related to Germany. 3. International arms trafficking. 4. Drug smuggling as part of organized crime. 5. Endangering the stability of the Euro through counterfeiting activities abroad. 6. International money laundering at a large scale. 7. Human trafficking. Mass surveillance by the BND for purposes outside of these seven areas is not allowed, period; any personal data intercepted that is not related to these areas must be deleted. Most of the target selectors provided by the NSA to the BND did not fall into any of these areas.
  - tomschlick 11y ago
    Which is probably why they used the NSA to do it. NSA spies on the people and hand the Germans the data. Germans don't technically breach their own laws and both get the intel. Scary as fuck for our privacy.