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Wait, you're comparing a NEW ICE car with 200+ range, warranty, etc to a tiny ~40 mile range USED EV with a battery pack on its last legs (battery pack capacity

Wait, you're comparing a NEW ICE car with 200+ range, warranty, etc to a tiny ~40 mile range USED EV with a battery pack on its last legs (battery pack capacity drops begin at around 10 to 15k and continue from there). Real world range in traffic, climate control on, etc is not the advertised number. Its not even close. Search the Leaf forums if you don't believe me. Not to mention, after Fed and State rebates, there's $10,000 off the cost, which is affecting its resale value. Give me $10,000 for an ICE car and I'll show you a near free car with 4x the range, a warranty, etc. Come on.

dangrossman 12y ago
Where are you getting this information? A 15K mile Leaf would typically have lost at most 5-10% of its original capacity (one "pip" on the health meter), and have a 70-90 mile range. My daily driver is a 2012 Leaf -- over 3 years old and I can still get over 100 miles between charges. I paid about $12K for it, fully loaded SL trim. Nissan's battery comes with two warranties: an 8-year 100K mile warranty against defects, and a 5-year 60K mile warranty against capacity loss. Even a 2011 Leaf with 50K miles on it will have at least 70% of its original range, but most have much more. Batteries don't degrade nearly as fast as you think they do. Tesla put out information about the original Roadster battery health a while back. That's a car that's been on the road long enough that owners have put a lot of miles (and charge cycles) on them. They averaged only 15% capacity loss after 100,000 miles. That was with even older battery tech. A couple year old EV is not "on its last legs".
- mikeash 12y ago
  It's pretty amazing how much disinformation is out there with regards to EV batteries. There are a lot of misconceptions about degradation, environmental impact of manufacturing, and toxicity. I think there must be a concerted effort going on to deliberately misinform people, as is the case with e.g. climate change. (Not blaming anyone here for being part of that effort to deliberately misinform people, but there are probably victims of it here.)
  - drzaiusapelord 12y ago
    Real world facts: The results of an Idaho National Laboratory study released in March found that the test LEAFs lost 22-26% of their initial capacity after just 40,000 miles. http://www.torquenews.com/2250/how-long-will-electric-vehicle-batteries-last-tesla-s-roadster-could-be-guide http://www.torquenews.com/2250/how-long-will-electric-vehicl... Frankly, I'm burned out by the bullshit EV enthusiasts push out on these forums. EVs suck now and there's nothing on the horizon to say otherwise. Tesla is losing money hand over foot and no one is buying EVs. Sorry guys, time to call a spade a spade here. Building our non-ICE dreams on Lithium-Ion just doesn't make sense. We need a better fuel/storage source to compete with ICE. I like how I have to provide sources yet the people making EXTRAORDINARY claims like "omg affordable EVs will be here in 12-24 months" are never, ever called out on their bullshit. Its been 12-24 months out for years. The sad fact that I provide real proof and skepticism leads to -5 downvotes shows you how immature and silly HN forums on are many hot topic issues, which EV seems to be here. edit: to the guy below me who wrote ""EVs suck now" not even close. Full disclosure: I own a Model S. It is the envy of everyone I show it to." Yeah, $100,000 cars tend to be impressive, but why am I paying for YOUR car via increasing my tax load? Take away the tax breaks and lets see Elon try to compete.
    - mikeash 12y ago
      Real world facts: LEAFs tested in Phoenix and discharged to under 5% capacity twice a day lost 22-26% of their initial capacity after just 40,000 miles. That's basically the worst case scenario and it still doesn't come anywhere close to supporting your claim of "on its last legs" at only 10,000 miles on the clock. Personally I think the LEAF's lack of active thermal management for the battery is a serious mistake, and your link reflects that. But even then it's not nearly as bad as you said. With more normal use in a more normal climate it'll be vastly better still. "EVs suck now" not even close. Full disclosure: I own a Model S. It is the envy of everyone I show it to. There are a lot of articles out there talking about how it's an awesome car. Those articles are wrong: it's far better than they say. The only objections people can come up with to it are based in fiction. "What if you want to do a road trip?" Well, I take advantage of the vast supercharger network. "What about battery degradation?" The battery was engineered to last 10 years and reports from the fleet so far is that they're doing better than expected. "Is it hard to find places to charge it?" No, it's really easy, because I charge it in my garage every day and never have to charge anywhere else in normal driving. "Tesla is losing money hand over foot" is another example of this concerted campaign of anti-EV disinformation. They make a healthy profit selling cars. (Average profit per car is something like 28%.) That profit just gets poured into capital expenditures rather than being returned to the shareholders at the moment, because they're trying to expand at a rapid pace.
- drzaiusapelord 12y ago
  There are a variety of sources of lithium wear, cherry picking the most attractive is just disingenious. The results of an Idaho National Laboratory study released in March found that the test LEAFs lost 22-26% of their initial capacity after just 40,000 miles. http://www.torquenews.com/2250/how-long-will-electric-vehicle-batteries-last-tesla-s-roadster-could-be-guide http://www.torquenews.com/2250/how-long-will-electric-vehicl... Real world wear is pretty bad, especially in places with hot summers, which is most of the US.
amalag 12y ago
What are these brand new ICE cars for $10k - $12k? Even a new cheap car like a Yaris would be $15k.

dangrossman 12y ago

Where are you getting this information? A 15K mile Leaf would typically have lost at most 5-10% of its original capacity (one "pip" on the health meter), and have a 70-90 mile range. My daily driver is a 2012 Leaf -- over 3 years old and I can still get over 100 miles between charges. I paid about $12K for it, fully loaded SL trim. Nissan's battery comes with two warranties: an 8-year 100K mile warranty against defects, and a 5-year 60K mile warranty against capacity loss. Even a 2011 Leaf with 50K miles on it will have at least 70% of its original range, but most have much more. Batteries don't degrade nearly as fast as you think they do. Tesla put out information about the original Roadster battery health a while back. That's a car that's been on the road long enough that owners have put a lot of miles (and charge cycles) on them. They averaged only 15% capacity loss after 100,000 miles. That was with even older battery tech. A couple year old EV is not "on its last legs".

mikeash 12y ago
It's pretty amazing how much disinformation is out there with regards to EV batteries. There are a lot of misconceptions about degradation, environmental impact of manufacturing, and toxicity. I think there must be a concerted effort going on to deliberately misinform people, as is the case with e.g. climate change. (Not blaming anyone here for being part of that effort to deliberately misinform people, but there are probably victims of it here.)
- drzaiusapelord 12y ago
  Real world facts: The results of an Idaho National Laboratory study released in March found that the test LEAFs lost 22-26% of their initial capacity after just 40,000 miles. http://www.torquenews.com/2250/how-long-will-electric-vehicle-batteries-last-tesla-s-roadster-could-be-guide http://www.torquenews.com/2250/how-long-will-electric-vehicl... Frankly, I'm burned out by the bullshit EV enthusiasts push out on these forums. EVs suck now and there's nothing on the horizon to say otherwise. Tesla is losing money hand over foot and no one is buying EVs. Sorry guys, time to call a spade a spade here. Building our non-ICE dreams on Lithium-Ion just doesn't make sense. We need a better fuel/storage source to compete with ICE. I like how I have to provide sources yet the people making EXTRAORDINARY claims like "omg affordable EVs will be here in 12-24 months" are never, ever called out on their bullshit. Its been 12-24 months out for years. The sad fact that I provide real proof and skepticism leads to -5 downvotes shows you how immature and silly HN forums on are many hot topic issues, which EV seems to be here. edit: to the guy below me who wrote ""EVs suck now" not even close. Full disclosure: I own a Model S. It is the envy of everyone I show it to." Yeah, $100,000 cars tend to be impressive, but why am I paying for YOUR car via increasing my tax load? Take away the tax breaks and lets see Elon try to compete.
  - mikeash 12y ago
    Real world facts: LEAFs tested in Phoenix and discharged to under 5% capacity twice a day lost 22-26% of their initial capacity after just 40,000 miles. That's basically the worst case scenario and it still doesn't come anywhere close to supporting your claim of "on its last legs" at only 10,000 miles on the clock. Personally I think the LEAF's lack of active thermal management for the battery is a serious mistake, and your link reflects that. But even then it's not nearly as bad as you said. With more normal use in a more normal climate it'll be vastly better still. "EVs suck now" not even close. Full disclosure: I own a Model S. It is the envy of everyone I show it to. There are a lot of articles out there talking about how it's an awesome car. Those articles are wrong: it's far better than they say. The only objections people can come up with to it are based in fiction. "What if you want to do a road trip?" Well, I take advantage of the vast supercharger network. "What about battery degradation?" The battery was engineered to last 10 years and reports from the fleet so far is that they're doing better than expected. "Is it hard to find places to charge it?" No, it's really easy, because I charge it in my garage every day and never have to charge anywhere else in normal driving. "Tesla is losing money hand over foot" is another example of this concerted campaign of anti-EV disinformation. They make a healthy profit selling cars. (Average profit per car is something like 28%.) That profit just gets poured into capital expenditures rather than being returned to the shareholders at the moment, because they're trying to expand at a rapid pace.
drzaiusapelord 12y ago
There are a variety of sources of lithium wear, cherry picking the most attractive is just disingenious. The results of an Idaho National Laboratory study released in March found that the test LEAFs lost 22-26% of their initial capacity after just 40,000 miles. http://www.torquenews.com/2250/how-long-will-electric-vehicle-batteries-last-tesla-s-roadster-could-be-guide http://www.torquenews.com/2250/how-long-will-electric-vehicl... Real world wear is pretty bad, especially in places with hot summers, which is most of the US.

amalag 12y ago

What are these brand new ICE cars for $10k - $12k? Even a new cheap car like a Yaris would be $15k.