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I think the biggest difference, speaking from my experience as a Leaf owner, is that electricity is much cheaper than petrol, more predictable in price/not as v

by jaxbot 11y ago

I think the biggest difference, speaking from my experience as a Leaf owner, is that electricity is much cheaper than petrol, more predictable in price/not as volatile as petrol prices, and the car itself is much more efficient than a gas car would be thanks to aerodynamics, regenerative braking and otherwise high efficiency in electric motors when compared to internal combustion engines.

hn_ 11y ago
Cost to operate the vehicle (gas) isn't the whole story. How much do these vehicles cost to insure and is it comparable with a gas car at a similar price point? (Not being snarky, just curious)
- mikeash 11y ago
  Insurance costs are pretty comparable, yes, from what I've heard. (I won't try to talk about my personal experience, since a single data point is just about pointless when discussing insurance, but it's comparable for me too.) The big problem for Model S insurance is that the body is aluminum, which is a lot more expensive to repair, especially since Tesla wants to exercise a great deal of control over the whole process. This seems to be compensated for by the excellent safety, which reduces potential medical costs.
- danielweber 11y ago
  If you can amortize the battery cost over the miles driven, electric cars ought to be cheaper than gas cars. Less maintenance (no spark plugs or oil changes), less consumables, and the purchase price is about the same (see my first phrase). If Better Place had worked out, it would have let people shift the battery ownership elsewhere. But it didn't.
raverbashing 11y ago
I'm not really sure about absolute price/J of energy comparison between electricity and gasoline However an electrical car is more efficient than a gasoline one (gas engines are inefficient, diesel not so much)
- lorenzhs 11y ago
  1l of gasoline stores 9.5 kWh [1] Typical fuel efficiency is 20% (with up to 37%) [2], so let's be optimistic and say 31.5% because that will mean that we would get 3kWh of energy out of every litre of gasoline in energy that is actually used to move the car. The efficiency of an electric vehicle is much higher, 86% was measured for the Tesla Roadster [3]. Assuming the same figure for a Model S, the effective battery capacity is 73kWh. Thus, the 85 kWh battery of a Tesla Model S corresponds to a 24.3 litre (6.4 US gallons) gas tank. In Germany, at 25ct/kWh, that's 21.25€ for the electricity or 34€ for the gasoline (at 1.40€/litre) [1] http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28gasoline+density+*+1l%29+*+%28energy+density+of+gasoline%29+in+kWh http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28gasoline+density+*+1... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency#Fuel_efficiency_of_vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency#Fuel_efficienc... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster#Energy_efficiency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster#Energy_efficien...
  - pmontra 11y ago
    I'm not familiar with taxation in Germany. How are taxes on electricity and on gasoline? Maybe without taxes the costs are not too different, and taxes could be shifted from gas to electricity if gas cars usage plummets (they have to get taxes from something...)
    - pjc50 11y ago
      Leaving aside the carbon tax issue, Germany in particular is less likely to shift the tax burden around as Germany has almost no domestic oil production.
      - pmontra 11y ago
        I researched it. These data are both from 2014: http://www.dw.de/german-electricity-price-is-half-taxes-and-fees/a-17849142 http://www.dw.de/german-electricity-price-is-half-taxes-and-... "A typical household that uses 3,500 kilowatt hours of power per year pays about 85 euros ($113) a month for electricity." "About 45 euros, just over half the monthly total, is composed of taxes and special levies imposed by government." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax#Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax#Germany "Fuel taxes in Germany are €0.4704 per litre for ultra-low sulphur Diesel and €0.6545 per litre for conventional unleaded petrol, plus Value Added Tax (19%) on the fuel itself and the Fuel Tax. That adds up to prices of €1.12 per litre for ultra-low sulphur Diesel and €1.27 per litre (approximately US$6,14 per US gallon) for unleaded petrol" So petrol and electricity are taxed about the same but diesel is a little "cheaper". Chances are that taxes won't change much even if all of them switch to electric cars tomorrow.
smackfu 11y ago
Our electricity costs are certainly more predictable: always going up.
commandar 11y ago
While your other points are perfectly valid, improved aero isn't an advantage unique to electric cars.
- NickM 11y ago
  You are correct that electric cars are not inherently more aerodynamic, but in practice it is easier to engineer them to be more aerodynamic. Not needing a big intake grill at the front makes a substantial difference, as does being able to easily seal off the bottom of the vehicle with a smooth flat surface.
  - commandar 11y ago
    Intake helps, correct, but on the latter point, most newer cars are coming with removable underbody paneling for just that reason. Aero is just improving across the board. The Nissan Leaf, for example, has a drag coefficient of around .28. While that's good, it's in the same ballpark as the current ICE Honda Fit.
    - NickM 11y ago
      Oh yeah, you are right to criticize the Leaf on that front. You would think if they were going to make a really weird looking car like that, they could at least take advantage of the relaxed design constraints and make it super efficient... The Tesla Model S on the other hand clocks in at 0.24, which is literally the best you can get on any production car right now. Admittedly this advantage might be partially cancelled out by the larger frontal area, but I think it's still noteworthy.

by jaxbot 11y ago

hn_ 11y ago

Cost to operate the vehicle (gas) isn't the whole story. How much do these vehicles cost to insure and is it comparable with a gas car at a similar price point? (Not being snarky, just curious)

mikeash 11y ago
Insurance costs are pretty comparable, yes, from what I've heard. (I won't try to talk about my personal experience, since a single data point is just about pointless when discussing insurance, but it's comparable for me too.) The big problem for Model S insurance is that the body is aluminum, which is a lot more expensive to repair, especially since Tesla wants to exercise a great deal of control over the whole process. This seems to be compensated for by the excellent safety, which reduces potential medical costs.
danielweber 11y ago
If you can amortize the battery cost over the miles driven, electric cars ought to be cheaper than gas cars. Less maintenance (no spark plugs or oil changes), less consumables, and the purchase price is about the same (see my first phrase). If Better Place had worked out, it would have let people shift the battery ownership elsewhere. But it didn't.

raverbashing 11y ago

I'm not really sure about absolute price/J of energy comparison between electricity and gasoline However an electrical car is more efficient than a gasoline one (gas engines are inefficient, diesel not so much)

lorenzhs 11y ago
1l of gasoline stores 9.5 kWh [1] Typical fuel efficiency is 20% (with up to 37%) [2], so let's be optimistic and say 31.5% because that will mean that we would get 3kWh of energy out of every litre of gasoline in energy that is actually used to move the car. The efficiency of an electric vehicle is much higher, 86% was measured for the Tesla Roadster [3]. Assuming the same figure for a Model S, the effective battery capacity is 73kWh. Thus, the 85 kWh battery of a Tesla Model S corresponds to a 24.3 litre (6.4 US gallons) gas tank. In Germany, at 25ct/kWh, that's 21.25€ for the electricity or 34€ for the gasoline (at 1.40€/litre) [1] http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28gasoline+density+*+1l%29+*+%28energy+density+of+gasoline%29+in+kWh http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28gasoline+density+*+1... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency#Fuel_efficiency_of_vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency#Fuel_efficienc... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster#Energy_efficiency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster#Energy_efficien...
- pmontra 11y ago
  I'm not familiar with taxation in Germany. How are taxes on electricity and on gasoline? Maybe without taxes the costs are not too different, and taxes could be shifted from gas to electricity if gas cars usage plummets (they have to get taxes from something...)
  - pjc50 11y ago
    Leaving aside the carbon tax issue, Germany in particular is less likely to shift the tax burden around as Germany has almost no domestic oil production.
    - pmontra 11y ago
      I researched it. These data are both from 2014: http://www.dw.de/german-electricity-price-is-half-taxes-and-fees/a-17849142 http://www.dw.de/german-electricity-price-is-half-taxes-and-... "A typical household that uses 3,500 kilowatt hours of power per year pays about 85 euros ($113) a month for electricity." "About 45 euros, just over half the monthly total, is composed of taxes and special levies imposed by government." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax#Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax#Germany "Fuel taxes in Germany are €0.4704 per litre for ultra-low sulphur Diesel and €0.6545 per litre for conventional unleaded petrol, plus Value Added Tax (19%) on the fuel itself and the Fuel Tax. That adds up to prices of €1.12 per litre for ultra-low sulphur Diesel and €1.27 per litre (approximately US$6,14 per US gallon) for unleaded petrol" So petrol and electricity are taxed about the same but diesel is a little "cheaper". Chances are that taxes won't change much even if all of them switch to electric cars tomorrow.

smackfu 11y ago

Our electricity costs are certainly more predictable: always going up.

commandar 11y ago

While your other points are perfectly valid, improved aero isn't an advantage unique to electric cars.

NickM 11y ago
You are correct that electric cars are not inherently more aerodynamic, but in practice it is easier to engineer them to be more aerodynamic. Not needing a big intake grill at the front makes a substantial difference, as does being able to easily seal off the bottom of the vehicle with a smooth flat surface.
- commandar 11y ago
  Intake helps, correct, but on the latter point, most newer cars are coming with removable underbody paneling for just that reason. Aero is just improving across the board. The Nissan Leaf, for example, has a drag coefficient of around .28. While that's good, it's in the same ballpark as the current ICE Honda Fit.
  - NickM 11y ago
    Oh yeah, you are right to criticize the Leaf on that front. You would think if they were going to make a really weird looking car like that, they could at least take advantage of the relaxed design constraints and make it super efficient... The Tesla Model S on the other hand clocks in at 0.24, which is literally the best you can get on any production car right now. Admittedly this advantage might be partially cancelled out by the larger frontal area, but I think it's still noteworthy.