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Battery cost is only part of the problem, the bigger problem is ability to charge where potential customers live and charging times. Unlike a conventionally fue

Battery cost is only part of the problem, the bigger problem is ability to charge where potential customers live and charging times. Unlike a conventionally fueled car, or EREV, there is no oops with a five minute fix. You forget to charge and you have to wait it out. I think a better application is instead of focusing on individual car buyers is to go for large government users of vehicles, namely the every day school bus. A neighboring county logs nearly sixty five thousand miles a day while school is in session. With nearly nine hundred routes that leaves an average near eighty miles. Considering the wasted space in the buses structure and replacement of the engine/drivetrain it certainly looks like a good option. Regardless of price decreases its the recharge rate that needs a lot of focus.

aidenn0 12y ago
I disagree, as the charge rate of a pack increases with its capacity. That is to say, there is a fixed time for a 0-100% charge, but as capacities increase, the time for a X mile charge decreases.
dublinben 12y ago
>the bigger problem is ability to charge where potential customers live Is this really a problem? Every EV I've ever seen offers a home charger that can be installed in your garage. I drive very few miles each week, and find going out of my way to stop at a gas station much more inconvenient than plugging in each night would be.
- bigiain 12y ago
  Out of 6 or 7 friends who live within walking distance of me, I'm the only one with a garage - one of them has a side entrance/carport, everyone else parks on the street. (And depending on exactly what "install" means, putting one in my rental garage might not be possible.) Further afield, I've got quite a few friends who live in high-density residential buildings, where their "garage" is a space in the big lot underneath the building, and has no facility for power (and certailnly not individually metered power). Plugin electrics are good for people who own houses - not yet so good for everybody else.
  - greglindahl 12y ago
    New apartments (and single family homes) where I live are required to provide hookups in their garages, and as a dweller in an older apartment block, I get along fine charging overnight at a nearby parking garage. But really, it's not about you and me or your friends, it's about the % of the market that can be served by EVs. And that's plenty big for the size of today's EV industry. We have the same discussion every time EVs come up on HN.
    - bigiain 12y ago
      Yep - sure. Though as it turns out, I _am_ part of the market that can be served by an EV - I ride a battery assist bicycle to word a couple of days a week, and I'm collecting parts to build my own homebrew electric motorcycle, I've got a running bike in the garage which I'm planning to gut of it's IC parts, and a line on a possible 2kWhr worth of Tesla battery pack cells. I love my 16 year old dinosaur burning Ducati, and intend to keep polluting the environment with it for decades more, but much more selectively than wasting it on commuting.
bigiain 12y ago
To be fair, it's not like you can completely ignore the remaining range in your dead-dinosaur fuelled vehicle either. If you run out of gas on a freeway or backroad in the middle of nowhere, you're still gonna get annoyed at your "oops". I'm probably a bit more aware of this than many - I ride a motorcycle with only 200 or so km (maybe 130mile) range, and take it _lot_ of places where keeping a good running tally of where the next fuel options are, and how I'm gonna get home if the next place happens to be shut. I suspect that in under 5 years, there'll be roadside assist vehicles with big 3 phase generators on board that are capable of Tesla Supercharger kind of rates of charge.
- ceequof 12y ago
  AAA did it in 2011: http://newsroom.aaa.com/2011/07/ev-charging-statio/ http://newsroom.aaa.com/2011/07/ev-charging-statio/ "Level 3 charging" here means DC fast charging: 125 amps at 500 volts (depending on the vehicle)
  - bigiain 12y ago
    /me pulls a technicality and claims "minus 4 years" is "less than 5 years" - thus being proved correct.
- userbinator 12y ago
  If you run out of gas on a freeway or backroad in the middle of nowhere, you're still gonna get annoyed at your "oops". That's what the spare tank in the boot is for. For EVs, I suppose you could carry an extra small battery pack, to be plugged in when you need an extra charge not unlike those for mobiles, but it would have to be kept charged too.
hackuser 12y ago
> the bigger problem is ability to charge where potential customers live and charging times. Unlike a conventionally fueled car, or EREV, there is no oops with a five minute fix. You forget to charge and you have to wait it out. How about swapping in a pre-charged battery at the charging station, instead of charging the one you brought with you? Some EV idea posted recently on Hacker News used this plan. If it's too hard to swap the large battery for an electric car, at least have a small secondary battery that can be swapped and can get you home.
- ericd 12y ago
  This has been tried a few times, and Elon has even demonstrated it on the Model S (it's faster than filling up a large-tanked luxury car). The super charger is close enough to instantaneous that I think we'll get to fast-enough recharge times and large enough capacities before we get to a nationwide battery-swapping network.
deelowe 12y ago
As someone who made the ev switch just over a year ago, this is not as much of an issue as I'd thought it would be and that's with a leaf (and me commuting over 50 miles a day one way).
- mrfusion 12y ago
  I was actually considering the leaf for a fifty mile commute. Do you have to charge during the day or can you do the whole 100 miles with no worries? What about hot/cold weather, traffic?
  - deelowe 12y ago
    Absolutely have to charge during the day. The charge varies by as much as 15 miles when it gets really cold. Summer doesn't affect it as much, but it can still vary by as much as 10. The mileage estimation in the dash is never right, so this is based on personal experience and what the car said was left when I plugged it in.
    - mrfusion 12y ago
      Ah thanks. So in my case I wouldn't be able to charge it during the day so I ruled it out. I guess I need to wait for something with 150 mile range?
vvanders 12y ago
Supercharger says Hi. 300A at 400VDC, usually only a ~15-20 minute charge to get enough juice to make it to the next one. When I'm heading home the last one on my trip ~80 miles away is usually 10 minutes from offramp to onramp.

aidenn0 12y ago

I disagree, as the charge rate of a pack increases with its capacity. That is to say, there is a fixed time for a 0-100% charge, but as capacities increase, the time for a X mile charge decreases.

dublinben 12y ago

>the bigger problem is ability to charge where potential customers live Is this really a problem? Every EV I've ever seen offers a home charger that can be installed in your garage. I drive very few miles each week, and find going out of my way to stop at a gas station much more inconvenient than plugging in each night would be.

bigiain 12y ago
Out of 6 or 7 friends who live within walking distance of me, I'm the only one with a garage - one of them has a side entrance/carport, everyone else parks on the street. (And depending on exactly what "install" means, putting one in my rental garage might not be possible.) Further afield, I've got quite a few friends who live in high-density residential buildings, where their "garage" is a space in the big lot underneath the building, and has no facility for power (and certailnly not individually metered power). Plugin electrics are good for people who own houses - not yet so good for everybody else.
- greglindahl 12y ago
  New apartments (and single family homes) where I live are required to provide hookups in their garages, and as a dweller in an older apartment block, I get along fine charging overnight at a nearby parking garage. But really, it's not about you and me or your friends, it's about the % of the market that can be served by EVs. And that's plenty big for the size of today's EV industry. We have the same discussion every time EVs come up on HN.
  - bigiain 12y ago
    Yep - sure. Though as it turns out, I _am_ part of the market that can be served by an EV - I ride a battery assist bicycle to word a couple of days a week, and I'm collecting parts to build my own homebrew electric motorcycle, I've got a running bike in the garage which I'm planning to gut of it's IC parts, and a line on a possible 2kWhr worth of Tesla battery pack cells. I love my 16 year old dinosaur burning Ducati, and intend to keep polluting the environment with it for decades more, but much more selectively than wasting it on commuting.

bigiain 12y ago

To be fair, it's not like you can completely ignore the remaining range in your dead-dinosaur fuelled vehicle either. If you run out of gas on a freeway or backroad in the middle of nowhere, you're still gonna get annoyed at your "oops". I'm probably a bit more aware of this than many - I ride a motorcycle with only 200 or so km (maybe 130mile) range, and take it _lot_ of places where keeping a good running tally of where the next fuel options are, and how I'm gonna get home if the next place happens to be shut. I suspect that in under 5 years, there'll be roadside assist vehicles with big 3 phase generators on board that are capable of Tesla Supercharger kind of rates of charge.

ceequof 12y ago
AAA did it in 2011: http://newsroom.aaa.com/2011/07/ev-charging-statio/ http://newsroom.aaa.com/2011/07/ev-charging-statio/ "Level 3 charging" here means DC fast charging: 125 amps at 500 volts (depending on the vehicle)
- bigiain 12y ago
  /me pulls a technicality and claims "minus 4 years" is "less than 5 years" - thus being proved correct.
userbinator 12y ago
If you run out of gas on a freeway or backroad in the middle of nowhere, you're still gonna get annoyed at your "oops". That's what the spare tank in the boot is for. For EVs, I suppose you could carry an extra small battery pack, to be plugged in when you need an extra charge not unlike those for mobiles, but it would have to be kept charged too.

hackuser 12y ago

> the bigger problem is ability to charge where potential customers live and charging times. Unlike a conventionally fueled car, or EREV, there is no oops with a five minute fix. You forget to charge and you have to wait it out. How about swapping in a pre-charged battery at the charging station, instead of charging the one you brought with you? Some EV idea posted recently on Hacker News used this plan. If it's too hard to swap the large battery for an electric car, at least have a small secondary battery that can be swapped and can get you home.

ericd 12y ago
This has been tried a few times, and Elon has even demonstrated it on the Model S (it's faster than filling up a large-tanked luxury car). The super charger is close enough to instantaneous that I think we'll get to fast-enough recharge times and large enough capacities before we get to a nationwide battery-swapping network.

deelowe 12y ago

As someone who made the ev switch just over a year ago, this is not as much of an issue as I'd thought it would be and that's with a leaf (and me commuting over 50 miles a day one way).

mrfusion 12y ago
I was actually considering the leaf for a fifty mile commute. Do you have to charge during the day or can you do the whole 100 miles with no worries? What about hot/cold weather, traffic?
- deelowe 12y ago
  Absolutely have to charge during the day. The charge varies by as much as 15 miles when it gets really cold. Summer doesn't affect it as much, but it can still vary by as much as 10. The mileage estimation in the dash is never right, so this is based on personal experience and what the car said was left when I plugged it in.
  - mrfusion 12y ago
    Ah thanks. So in my case I wouldn't be able to charge it during the day so I ruled it out. I guess I need to wait for something with 150 mile range?

vvanders 12y ago

Supercharger says Hi. 300A at 400VDC, usually only a ~15-20 minute charge to get enough juice to make it to the next one. When I'm heading home the last one on my trip ~80 miles away is usually 10 minutes from offramp to onramp.