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> What if you went to an open house and the agent said, "so, you like the place, eh? How much do you want to buy it for?" This would be so ridiculous, nobody wo

by estefan 11y ago

> What if you went to an open house and the agent said, "so, you like the place, eh? How much do you want to buy it for?" This would be so ridiculous, nobody would play that game buying a house yet we do it all the time when negotiating our salaries. Really? Great! Start low! There's nothing wrong with this. Ever seen something sold suffixed "Or nearest offer"? This is great news because it shows the seller has no conviction of their price, so try giving them a low offer. You don't know what pressure they're under to sell. For salary negotiations try a high figure. Your current salary has NOTHING to do with what you expect in future. Again, you don't know what pressure the employer is in to recruit. Try chancing your arm. I've done this several times. It's great when you just get back "OK no problem". Look, a negotiation is not about trying to mind read what the other party will accept. There's nothing wrong about discussing what you want. There's no law that you need to regulate your salary so your new salary is current * 1.1. It's about reaching something that works for both parties. You need to go in high so you know that you couldn't have got any more out of them. If you're good and they want you, you'll probably be in a strong negotiating position anyway. Explain to recruiters what you want, and if they press for your current salary there's no harm in giving it. At the end of the day if you know what you'll accept and can justify it (e.g. "I'm on x but want Y because I've got experience of a,b,c,/I'm due a pay review soon/I took this job for the experience, etc") then you're in a strong position. From the article: > you have just blown your negotation position out of the water Wrong. It may mean you need to justify what you want ("I knew I wasn't getting market rate, but I wanted the experience so now I'm worth x * 1.5"). I've never known this figure be passed on to employers anyway. > you have passed information from your current employer to the recruiter and your potential future employer Er, what? Who cares? See above. > you have made it that much harder for all savvy negotatiors at your current company to play their cards close to their chest with this recruiter and your potential future employer If the negotiators are truly savvy it's irrelevant what anyone else earns. If you ever hear the argument "we can't pay you X because we only pay so-and-so Y" explain you aren't that person. If they stick to their guns for "pay parity", thank them and walk away. > you are assisting in an underwater price-fixing scheme between employers where they will all attempt to pay roughly the same rather than to negotiate with each individual according to value presented The supply and demand "price-fixing scheme"? This is what it's all about. If you're in an industry where good people are hard to find, and you're good, you're in a strong position. Try and recruit someone decent in IT if you want to see a bunch of clowns. Honestly, if you're good, this post is irrelevant. BTW - check out "Everything is Negotiable". That book has made me thousands...

czep 11y ago
> Look, a negotiation is not about trying to mind read what the other party will accept. There's nothing wrong about discussing what you want. I agree 100% with your first sentence, but not the second. As you note, everything is negotiable, this includes the budget range and expectations that the company has for the role. If you say, "my requirements are $130k", then there's no way they will pay $150k. But if you keep your mouth shut, you wait until you have a bargaining position -- leverage -- which is the fact that they want to hire you. If the hiring manager, his boss, the interview loop, have all given you the green light, they will NOT allow a recuiter to low ball you just to save $30k. Not every recruiter phone call will get to this position, but the point is, when you do get to this final round, you DO NOT want to have already given away how much you are willing to work for. Does this make sense? If/when you get to this final round and they still don't know your number, you can bid yourself up to the freaking stars. You still be willing to walk away, but they have already invested a lot of time and will not bat an eye at throwing you another $30k. Hell, if the kismet is working, you could double your salary this way, it all depends on how much they want you. If double your salary is well outside the range of the budget for the position, it doesn't matter because they simply re-level the job req on the spot, just for you, because they want to hire you so f'ing bad they will do it. But if you already told the recuiter on day 1 that $130k is enough, then it just doesn't matter any more.
- estefan 11y ago
  I disagree. Recruiters will know how difficult it has been to fill the position. They generally work on a percentage - in which case the more you can get the better, or a flat fee, in which case they don't care. It's all about making them want you, and justification. Even if you initially say to the recruiter that you're looking for $100k, but when the manager asks you you reply with $130k, this isn't a problem provided you can justify it ("I'm looking at several other options at the moment/I've reconsidered/something else creative"). Often the justification doesn't need to be watertight - just something to say that sort of makes sense. Even just saying that you've reassess the market is sufficient. There's no wrong answer if you say something subjective. > they will NOT allow a recuiter to low ball you just to save $30k. Agreed. But the recruiter should do as they're told by the client. It isn't the recruiter you need to convince. > it all depends on how much they want you This is the key point. Make them want you and then negotiate. But make sure that your opening offer is so high that they can't do it - or if they do you'll be very happy anyway. Then come down a bit or change the package ("Oh, OK well if there was more holiday/working from home/whatever I'd consider it for that salary"). Most of the time managers aren't paying with their own money. The only place I've ever had to bargain hard was for a small company. Never again. It's just so much easier negotiating and working with people who spend someone else's money (i.e. bigger corporations). Also, if you let the other person open the negotiations, as another commenter has said you're then in an uphill struggle. People compare things - since there is no absolute value here - so start the comparison at the top end where you want it. Don't let the other party dictate where the negotation starts.

by estefan 11y ago

czep 11y ago

> Look, a negotiation is not about trying to mind read what the other party will accept. There's nothing wrong about discussing what you want. I agree 100% with your first sentence, but not the second. As you note, everything is negotiable, this includes the budget range and expectations that the company has for the role. If you say, "my requirements are $130k", then there's no way they will pay $150k. But if you keep your mouth shut, you wait until you have a bargaining position -- leverage -- which is the fact that they want to hire you. If the hiring manager, his boss, the interview loop, have all given you the green light, they will NOT allow a recuiter to low ball you just to save $30k. Not every recruiter phone call will get to this position, but the point is, when you do get to this final round, you DO NOT want to have already given away how much you are willing to work for. Does this make sense? If/when you get to this final round and they still don't know your number, you can bid yourself up to the freaking stars. You still be willing to walk away, but they have already invested a lot of time and will not bat an eye at throwing you another $30k. Hell, if the kismet is working, you could double your salary this way, it all depends on how much they want you. If double your salary is well outside the range of the budget for the position, it doesn't matter because they simply re-level the job req on the spot, just for you, because they want to hire you so f'ing bad they will do it. But if you already told the recuiter on day 1 that $130k is enough, then it just doesn't matter any more.

estefan 11y ago
I disagree. Recruiters will know how difficult it has been to fill the position. They generally work on a percentage - in which case the more you can get the better, or a flat fee, in which case they don't care. It's all about making them want you, and justification. Even if you initially say to the recruiter that you're looking for $100k, but when the manager asks you you reply with $130k, this isn't a problem provided you can justify it ("I'm looking at several other options at the moment/I've reconsidered/something else creative"). Often the justification doesn't need to be watertight - just something to say that sort of makes sense. Even just saying that you've reassess the market is sufficient. There's no wrong answer if you say something subjective. > they will NOT allow a recuiter to low ball you just to save $30k. Agreed. But the recruiter should do as they're told by the client. It isn't the recruiter you need to convince. > it all depends on how much they want you This is the key point. Make them want you and then negotiate. But make sure that your opening offer is so high that they can't do it - or if they do you'll be very happy anyway. Then come down a bit or change the package ("Oh, OK well if there was more holiday/working from home/whatever I'd consider it for that salary"). Most of the time managers aren't paying with their own money. The only place I've ever had to bargain hard was for a small company. Never again. It's just so much easier negotiating and working with people who spend someone else's money (i.e. bigger corporations). Also, if you let the other person open the negotiations, as another commenter has said you're then in an uphill struggle. People compare things - since there is no absolute value here - so start the comparison at the top end where you want it. Don't let the other party dictate where the negotation starts.