8 ms·

> When asked this question I would suggest you ask the recruiter for his budget in return, or to simply state your salary requirement (rather than your current

by czep 11y ago

> When asked this question I would suggest you ask the recruiter for his budget in return, or to simply state your salary requirement (rather than your current salary) instead. I would argue that even this should be avoided. Salary negotiation is a chess game that rewards Black. Make them come up with a number, yes it will piss them off to no end and many recruiters will simply refuse to deal with you. Know what? That's perfectly fine because there are a hundred other recruiters who are so eager for a chunk of your salary that they will take a chance to negotiate with you. Another reason not to spit out a number is that by not doing so you are making yourself look like hot shit, rather than a commodity. What if you went to an open house and the agent said, "so, you like the place, eh? How much do you want to buy it for?" This would be so ridiculous, nobody would play that game buying a house yet we do it all the time when negotiating our salaries. Be willing to walk away, be polite but firmly defer or deflect any attempt at making you state the number first. Above all, remember that 5 minutes after you hang up the phone, another recruiter is going to give you a call.

gizi 11y ago
I agree. Let them make an offer first. At that point, your current salary is hopefully irrelevant. If it is relevant, however, you're going to stick with your current job anyway.
scott00 11y ago
Why does making a salary demand before they make a salary offer put you at a disadvantage? (Note, this is not rhetorical, if you have a good rationale for this, I'd really like to understand the reasoning.)
- pkaye 11y ago
  You maybe undervaluing yourself so when you put out a number, the offer will be anchored around that number.
  - scott00 11y ago
    That's not a problem with making a demand before an offer, that's a problem with making a low demand.
- czep 11y ago
  Because they don't know how much you will accept. They have salary bands, a budget, and past experience, but they've never encountered you before. If you give away your salary requirements, you may well cost yourself a great deal of money because no matter how much they want you later in the process, you will already have revealed how much you are willing to accept. Try responding with "I'm fairly certain my CV commands top of market, what are the budget expectations set for the role?" If the recruiter then gives you a budget range, react unimpressed, REGARDLESS OF THE NUMBER. Keep your best poker face and say "Well, I'm sure they could be flexible for the right candidate". Even if the number they tell you is 2x more than you wanted, you act unimpressed. Your attitude should be polite, but absolutely not willing to settle for one penny less than what you are worth. And you will not tell them what you are worth, they have to figure that out for themselves. You wait until the late stage when everyone has given you a green light, the company has already invested a lot of time with you, and they want you. Are they going to start all over to save a mere $30k? No, but if you already told them you don't need that extra $30k, they certainly won't give it to you now.
estefan 11y ago
> What if you went to an open house and the agent said, "so, you like the place, eh? How much do you want to buy it for?" This would be so ridiculous, nobody would play that game buying a house yet we do it all the time when negotiating our salaries. Really? Great! Start low! There's nothing wrong with this. Ever seen something sold suffixed "Or nearest offer"? This is great news because it shows the seller has no conviction of their price, so try giving them a low offer. You don't know what pressure they're under to sell. For salary negotiations try a high figure. Your current salary has NOTHING to do with what you expect in future. Again, you don't know what pressure the employer is in to recruit. Try chancing your arm. I've done this several times. It's great when you just get back "OK no problem". Look, a negotiation is not about trying to mind read what the other party will accept. There's nothing wrong about discussing what you want. There's no law that you need to regulate your salary so your new salary is current * 1.1. It's about reaching something that works for both parties. You need to go in high so you know that you couldn't have got any more out of them. If you're good and they want you, you'll probably be in a strong negotiating position anyway. Explain to recruiters what you want, and if they press for your current salary there's no harm in giving it. At the end of the day if you know what you'll accept and can justify it (e.g. "I'm on x but want Y because I've got experience of a,b,c,/I'm due a pay review soon/I took this job for the experience, etc") then you're in a strong position. From the article: > you have just blown your negotation position out of the water Wrong. It may mean you need to justify what you want ("I knew I wasn't getting market rate, but I wanted the experience so now I'm worth x * 1.5"). I've never known this figure be passed on to employers anyway. > you have passed information from your current employer to the recruiter and your potential future employer Er, what? Who cares? See above. > you have made it that much harder for all savvy negotatiors at your current company to play their cards close to their chest with this recruiter and your potential future employer If the negotiators are truly savvy it's irrelevant what anyone else earns. If you ever hear the argument "we can't pay you X because we only pay so-and-so Y" explain you aren't that person. If they stick to their guns for "pay parity", thank them and walk away. > you are assisting in an underwater price-fixing scheme between employers where they will all attempt to pay roughly the same rather than to negotiate with each individual according to value presented The supply and demand "price-fixing scheme"? This is what it's all about. If you're in an industry where good people are hard to find, and you're good, you're in a strong position. Try and recruit someone decent in IT if you want to see a bunch of clowns. Honestly, if you're good, this post is irrelevant. BTW - check out "Everything is Negotiable". That book has made me thousands...
JamesBarney 11y ago
I think developers should make the first offer. Here is a professor who has studied negotiation who talks about how it's advantageous to make the first offer because of the anchoring effect. [0] My belief is the way to win a negotiation is to convince the other party that what they're looking to buy(top end development talent) is expensive, and you are just looking for a fair price. So use the salary guide to price a top end developer. Most recruiters say they are looking for top end developer talent.(If they say they are looking for mediocre seat warmers run for the hills :) ) Explain why you fit that description and explain that you're looking for a salary commensurate with your abilities ( around 218k for a Java Dev in San Fran[1] pre-benefits). Cite the salary guide, then see what they come back with.* * - If however you're trying to push your salary above this top end I think your previous salary starts to become your ally. Disclosing you're salary when earning 218k will help remove a lot of offers immediately and convince other people that you are such a great dev you are earning 218k. [0]http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/news_articles/2014/04022014-negotiate_first_offer.aspx http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/news_articles/2014/04022... [1]http://s3.amazonaws.com/DBM/M3/2011/Downloads/RHT_2015_salary-guide.pdf http://s3.amazonaws.com/DBM/M3/2011/Downloads/RHT_2015_salar...
- moron4hire 11y ago
  I agree that experienced people should make the first offer, in the sense that I already know what I should expect for a salary given my experience and location, and at the same time I don't need any particular job. If they decline me because I'm too expensive, it's no skin off my nose. I can tell them up-front "agree your offer will be no less than $X now or I don't even go through your interviewing process." And it works. But I have a great resume and a comfortable position right now. It sucks to be a junior dev, though. You have no idea what the market is like yet, you don't have any bargaining capacity, you're basically stuck taking what you can get. And that's where "tell us your previous salary" becomes a major liability. If you're trying to find your 2nd job, your current salary could have no bearing on your actual value as an employee. If you have still not learned the lesson that recruiters are not your advocates, you could end up in yet another low-paying job, punting the issue further down the road.
  - 11y ago
joesmo 11y ago
I think avoiding negotiating salary in advance is the best way to waste one's own time in the hiring process. Why do a phone screen, one or more interviews, and possibly some day-long coding challenge only to find out that the company wants you but does not want to pay your rate? This has been exactly my experience a multitude of times. Figure out what you want to make and what the market pays and ask for it up front. Add a bit of wiggle room so they can knock off a few thousand on their end and you're still getting what you want. That would be my advice because many negotiations will get to the offer stage and be out of reach or unwilling to pay, even if they really want you. You can try to play the game of not giving out a figure first, but it's much harder to do when you're avoiding a direct question ("What will it take for you to join our company?") in salary negotiations with the CEO after an interview. When you've had enough time wasted by the process and companies not willing to pay an extra $10 or $20k to even be at market rate, eliminating fruitless job-seeking endeavors is much more important than trying to play games around salary.
- walshemj 11y ago
  I think any serious candidates would bail at "day long coding challenge"
  - seanp2k2 11y ago
    The typical experience in my experience is a few recruiter calls first, a phone screen or two, then a full day of on-site interviews with 4-10 people, possibly including a take-home project due in the next few days.
    - walshemj 11y ago
      To be blunt that is the sign of an amateur HR department and possibly in need of being put on a PIP plan.
giaour 11y ago
This really only applies if they cold-called you, doesn't it? If you applied, then you started the game and chose to play white. To follow your other analogy, if you walk into an open house, a realtor is totally within his or her rights to ask you about your budget.
rossta 11y ago
> Be willing to walk away This, or understanding your "best alternative to the negotiated agreement", is really the key to behaving in your own best interests. If fear of rejection is one's rationale for giving up bargaining power by revealing too much info or for not asking for enough, then the game is lost.

by czep 11y ago

gizi 11y ago

I agree. Let them make an offer first. At that point, your current salary is hopefully irrelevant. If it is relevant, however, you're going to stick with your current job anyway.

scott00 11y ago

Why does making a salary demand before they make a salary offer put you at a disadvantage? (Note, this is not rhetorical, if you have a good rationale for this, I'd really like to understand the reasoning.)

pkaye 11y ago
You maybe undervaluing yourself so when you put out a number, the offer will be anchored around that number.
- scott00 11y ago
  That's not a problem with making a demand before an offer, that's a problem with making a low demand.
czep 11y ago
Because they don't know how much you will accept. They have salary bands, a budget, and past experience, but they've never encountered you before. If you give away your salary requirements, you may well cost yourself a great deal of money because no matter how much they want you later in the process, you will already have revealed how much you are willing to accept. Try responding with "I'm fairly certain my CV commands top of market, what are the budget expectations set for the role?" If the recruiter then gives you a budget range, react unimpressed, REGARDLESS OF THE NUMBER. Keep your best poker face and say "Well, I'm sure they could be flexible for the right candidate". Even if the number they tell you is 2x more than you wanted, you act unimpressed. Your attitude should be polite, but absolutely not willing to settle for one penny less than what you are worth. And you will not tell them what you are worth, they have to figure that out for themselves. You wait until the late stage when everyone has given you a green light, the company has already invested a lot of time with you, and they want you. Are they going to start all over to save a mere $30k? No, but if you already told them you don't need that extra $30k, they certainly won't give it to you now.

estefan 11y ago

> What if you went to an open house and the agent said, "so, you like the place, eh? How much do you want to buy it for?" This would be so ridiculous, nobody would play that game buying a house yet we do it all the time when negotiating our salaries. Really? Great! Start low! There's nothing wrong with this. Ever seen something sold suffixed "Or nearest offer"? This is great news because it shows the seller has no conviction of their price, so try giving them a low offer. You don't know what pressure they're under to sell. For salary negotiations try a high figure. Your current salary has NOTHING to do with what you expect in future. Again, you don't know what pressure the employer is in to recruit. Try chancing your arm. I've done this several times. It's great when you just get back "OK no problem". Look, a negotiation is not about trying to mind read what the other party will accept. There's nothing wrong about discussing what you want. There's no law that you need to regulate your salary so your new salary is current * 1.1. It's about reaching something that works for both parties. You need to go in high so you know that you couldn't have got any more out of them. If you're good and they want you, you'll probably be in a strong negotiating position anyway. Explain to recruiters what you want, and if they press for your current salary there's no harm in giving it. At the end of the day if you know what you'll accept and can justify it (e.g. "I'm on x but want Y because I've got experience of a,b,c,/I'm due a pay review soon/I took this job for the experience, etc") then you're in a strong position. From the article: > you have just blown your negotation position out of the water Wrong. It may mean you need to justify what you want ("I knew I wasn't getting market rate, but I wanted the experience so now I'm worth x * 1.5"). I've never known this figure be passed on to employers anyway. > you have passed information from your current employer to the recruiter and your potential future employer Er, what? Who cares? See above. > you have made it that much harder for all savvy negotatiors at your current company to play their cards close to their chest with this recruiter and your potential future employer If the negotiators are truly savvy it's irrelevant what anyone else earns. If you ever hear the argument "we can't pay you X because we only pay so-and-so Y" explain you aren't that person. If they stick to their guns for "pay parity", thank them and walk away. > you are assisting in an underwater price-fixing scheme between employers where they will all attempt to pay roughly the same rather than to negotiate with each individual according to value presented The supply and demand "price-fixing scheme"? This is what it's all about. If you're in an industry where good people are hard to find, and you're good, you're in a strong position. Try and recruit someone decent in IT if you want to see a bunch of clowns. Honestly, if you're good, this post is irrelevant. BTW - check out "Everything is Negotiable". That book has made me thousands...

JamesBarney 11y ago

I think developers should make the first offer. Here is a professor who has studied negotiation who talks about how it's advantageous to make the first offer because of the anchoring effect. [0] My belief is the way to win a negotiation is to convince the other party that what they're looking to buy(top end development talent) is expensive, and you are just looking for a fair price. So use the salary guide to price a top end developer. Most recruiters say they are looking for top end developer talent.(If they say they are looking for mediocre seat warmers run for the hills :) ) Explain why you fit that description and explain that you're looking for a salary commensurate with your abilities ( around 218k for a Java Dev in San Fran[1] pre-benefits). Cite the salary guide, then see what they come back with.* * - If however you're trying to push your salary above this top end I think your previous salary starts to become your ally. Disclosing you're salary when earning 218k will help remove a lot of offers immediately and convince other people that you are such a great dev you are earning 218k. [0]http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/news_articles/2014/04022014-negotiate_first_offer.aspx http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/news_articles/2014/04022... [1]http://s3.amazonaws.com/DBM/M3/2011/Downloads/RHT_2015_salary-guide.pdf http://s3.amazonaws.com/DBM/M3/2011/Downloads/RHT_2015_salar...

moron4hire 11y ago
I agree that experienced people should make the first offer, in the sense that I already know what I should expect for a salary given my experience and location, and at the same time I don't need any particular job. If they decline me because I'm too expensive, it's no skin off my nose. I can tell them up-front "agree your offer will be no less than $X now or I don't even go through your interviewing process." And it works. But I have a great resume and a comfortable position right now. It sucks to be a junior dev, though. You have no idea what the market is like yet, you don't have any bargaining capacity, you're basically stuck taking what you can get. And that's where "tell us your previous salary" becomes a major liability. If you're trying to find your 2nd job, your current salary could have no bearing on your actual value as an employee. If you have still not learned the lesson that recruiters are not your advocates, you could end up in yet another low-paying job, punting the issue further down the road.
- 11y ago

joesmo 11y ago

I think avoiding negotiating salary in advance is the best way to waste one's own time in the hiring process. Why do a phone screen, one or more interviews, and possibly some day-long coding challenge only to find out that the company wants you but does not want to pay your rate? This has been exactly my experience a multitude of times. Figure out what you want to make and what the market pays and ask for it up front. Add a bit of wiggle room so they can knock off a few thousand on their end and you're still getting what you want. That would be my advice because many negotiations will get to the offer stage and be out of reach or unwilling to pay, even if they really want you. You can try to play the game of not giving out a figure first, but it's much harder to do when you're avoiding a direct question ("What will it take for you to join our company?") in salary negotiations with the CEO after an interview. When you've had enough time wasted by the process and companies not willing to pay an extra $10 or $20k to even be at market rate, eliminating fruitless job-seeking endeavors is much more important than trying to play games around salary.

walshemj 11y ago
I think any serious candidates would bail at "day long coding challenge"
- seanp2k2 11y ago
  The typical experience in my experience is a few recruiter calls first, a phone screen or two, then a full day of on-site interviews with 4-10 people, possibly including a take-home project due in the next few days.
  - walshemj 11y ago
    To be blunt that is the sign of an amateur HR department and possibly in need of being put on a PIP plan.

giaour 11y ago

This really only applies if they cold-called you, doesn't it? If you applied, then you started the game and chose to play white. To follow your other analogy, if you walk into an open house, a realtor is totally within his or her rights to ask you about your budget.

rossta 11y ago

> Be willing to walk away This, or understanding your "best alternative to the negotiated agreement", is really the key to behaving in your own best interests. If fear of rejection is one's rationale for giving up bargaining power by revealing too much info or for not asking for enough, then the game is lost.