4 ms·

This creates a problem for a lot of progressives, since attacking public sector unions is a big no no. Like, a super duper colossal no no. I see it floated arou

This creates a problem for a lot of progressives, since attacking public sector unions is a big no no. Like, a super duper colossal no no. I see it floated around every once in a while on some mainstream American lefty blogs, and it always gets shot down.

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ericcumbee 11y ago
Conservatives also have a problem. It's called the law and order voter. Taking the side of a crook/thug/punk over the brave men and women of law enforcement is not good politics with that voting block.
- username223 11y ago
  Liberals can make concessions about Union bargaining power, but what can conservatives concede? Investigating and trying cops by the same rules as citizens for assault/battery/manslaughter/murder seems like a non-starter, but I can't think of what else to suggest.
  - ericcumbee 11y ago
    I think in both cases changing demographics and constituencies. Union membership and power is wanning. and in conservative circles I see the younger (and I count myself among them) being slightly more libertarian influenced, and with that slightly more skeptical of police power and government power in general.
    - rayiner 11y ago
      I think the public employee benefits/pensions crisis will be a flashpoint for conservative millennials. The law and order tendency is going to be tempered by the fact that they're going to bear increased taxes while getting fewer services to pay for skyrocketing police pension and benefit costs.
      - glesica 11y ago
        Why would this be a problem? Have you looked at the defense budget recently? Just cut science funding, education, hell just fire all the teachers outright, get rid of social safety net entirely, sell the national parks, etc. There are thousands of major budget items that conservatives hate that can be slashed before their precious storm troopers would need to take a budget cut... In fact, the need to continue funding the cops can be used as an excuse to cut the other stuff, just like the "need" for a "strong national defense" is used as an excuse to slash the aforementioned items.
- smtddr 11y ago
  Both your comment and the one you're replying shows the huge problem with politics and "talking points". Since people can't be bothered to truly understand an issue, they can only hold on to simple absolutes. Impossible to support the rebel, impossible to say no to unions, impossible to consider the brave people of the military or local law enforcement might be wrong.
  - jasonm23 11y ago
    The greatest argument against democracy. A five minute conversation with an average voter.
alexqgb 11y ago
There may be a growing awareness that police unions are not like other unions. Historically, American cops were used to violently break up strikes, so their fraternal orders have never been seen by other unions as trusted members of the same cause. Quite the contrary. And while the resulting animosity may have diminished in recent decades, police unions are still viewed by other unions as a thing apart. Given the increasingly visible role of police unions in backstopping egregious behavior, current events are extending this view to a broader segment of the public. Indeed, what's becoming clear is that while the standard concerns of unions are shared by police unions (working conditions, pay, etc.), they also serve a more fundamental purpose that's unique to law enforcement; shielding their members from legal accountability for acts of violence committed against the public. Unfortunately, this is not an entirely unreasonable thing for them to demand. In essence, they're expected to do a lot of the dirty work demanded by those in power. And by "dirty" I mean fundamentally disrespectful of people's basic rights. To the extent that an establishment is supported by the general public, special protections for the heavies are unnecessary. But the moment sentiment turns against them, the cops know full well that they'll be hung out to dry - even if their abuses were an unavoidable result of following specific orders (e.g., meeting quotas for arrests, prosecuting the drug war, growing department budgets via dubious asset forfeitures, etc.) This use 'em and abuse 'em approach to outsourcing violence is not a new phenomena. In fact, the situation that police unions exist to protect their members against was detailed by Niccolo Machiavelli in 16th century, when he provided an account of Cesare Borgia, who was unburdened by heavy scruples, and Remirro de Orco, a brutal but useful man for whom things ended very badly. http://faculty.cua.edu/pennington/churchhistory220/Lecture13/PrinceCesareBorgia.html http://faculty.cua.edu/pennington/churchhistory220/Lecture13...
vidarh 11y ago
The idea that attack police unions is a negative seems pretty bizarre to me. In Europe, the left generally ranges from broadly accepting of (social democrats), to wholeheartedly embracing (many anarchist or other anti-authoritarian groups), the generally very strict limits on the powers granted to police unions vs. other unions, on the basis that large parts of the European left see police as a potential threat to democratic society if their power is left unchecked (whether or not said group have a positive or negative view of police in general), and not insignificant numbers have relatively regular direct run-ins with police in the context of demonstrations etc. E.g. in the UK police has been denied the right to strike is the 1919 Police Act. In Norway police may strike, but only subject to very strict limits on when and how, and with the caveat that the government may at any time declare a continued strike illegal - only a few other groups (military, essential hospital staff and similar) are subject to similarly strict regulation of strikes. The limited strike right is often used as an invitation to substantially limit these unions influence.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- wavefunction 11y ago
  Actually responding to jjoonathan here... Both the police and correctional officer unions often donate to the Republicans as much if not more than the Democrat politicians.
  - leoc 11y ago
    Relevant: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/394743/its-time-take-police-unions-lucy-morrow-caldwell http://www.nationalreview.com/article/394743/its-time-take-p... And more police-union goodness: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/380455/tax-funded-union-work-jillian-kay-melchior http://www.nationalreview.com/article/380455/tax-funded-unio...
  - InTheArena 11y ago
    This appears to be a false statement. In fact, viewing the top contributions, only one of the top twenty is a republican: http://maplight.org/us-congress/interest/L1400 http://maplight.org/us-congress/interest/L1400 Source Please.
tsotha 11y ago
And it always will, because that's where the money comes from. It's a patronage machine - higher salaries --> more money for union supporters --> more union supporters in office --> higher salaries...
malandrew 11y ago
I'm wondering if the best way to do it is to use other unions to do the attacking. Other unions are uniquely positioned to be able to attack things specific to police unions that are out of whack and need to be corrected. They will also possess the nuance to know what rights enable unions to do good and protect those rights.
emn13 11y ago
Turning an societal issue into a game of name-calling ("progressives" this, "conservatives" that) is a sure-fire way to distract from the issue at hand. What's that point of your comment?

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deleted 11y ago

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ericcumbee 11y ago

Conservatives also have a problem. It's called the law and order voter. Taking the side of a crook/thug/punk over the brave men and women of law enforcement is not good politics with that voting block.

username223 11y ago
Liberals can make concessions about Union bargaining power, but what can conservatives concede? Investigating and trying cops by the same rules as citizens for assault/battery/manslaughter/murder seems like a non-starter, but I can't think of what else to suggest.
- ericcumbee 11y ago
  I think in both cases changing demographics and constituencies. Union membership and power is wanning. and in conservative circles I see the younger (and I count myself among them) being slightly more libertarian influenced, and with that slightly more skeptical of police power and government power in general.
  - rayiner 11y ago
    I think the public employee benefits/pensions crisis will be a flashpoint for conservative millennials. The law and order tendency is going to be tempered by the fact that they're going to bear increased taxes while getting fewer services to pay for skyrocketing police pension and benefit costs.
    - glesica 11y ago
      Why would this be a problem? Have you looked at the defense budget recently? Just cut science funding, education, hell just fire all the teachers outright, get rid of social safety net entirely, sell the national parks, etc. There are thousands of major budget items that conservatives hate that can be slashed before their precious storm troopers would need to take a budget cut... In fact, the need to continue funding the cops can be used as an excuse to cut the other stuff, just like the "need" for a "strong national defense" is used as an excuse to slash the aforementioned items.
smtddr 11y ago
Both your comment and the one you're replying shows the huge problem with politics and "talking points". Since people can't be bothered to truly understand an issue, they can only hold on to simple absolutes. Impossible to support the rebel, impossible to say no to unions, impossible to consider the brave people of the military or local law enforcement might be wrong.
- jasonm23 11y ago
  The greatest argument against democracy. A five minute conversation with an average voter.

alexqgb 11y ago

There may be a growing awareness that police unions are not like other unions. Historically, American cops were used to violently break up strikes, so their fraternal orders have never been seen by other unions as trusted members of the same cause. Quite the contrary. And while the resulting animosity may have diminished in recent decades, police unions are still viewed by other unions as a thing apart. Given the increasingly visible role of police unions in backstopping egregious behavior, current events are extending this view to a broader segment of the public. Indeed, what's becoming clear is that while the standard concerns of unions are shared by police unions (working conditions, pay, etc.), they also serve a more fundamental purpose that's unique to law enforcement; shielding their members from legal accountability for acts of violence committed against the public. Unfortunately, this is not an entirely unreasonable thing for them to demand. In essence, they're expected to do a lot of the dirty work demanded by those in power. And by "dirty" I mean fundamentally disrespectful of people's basic rights. To the extent that an establishment is supported by the general public, special protections for the heavies are unnecessary. But the moment sentiment turns against them, the cops know full well that they'll be hung out to dry - even if their abuses were an unavoidable result of following specific orders (e.g., meeting quotas for arrests, prosecuting the drug war, growing department budgets via dubious asset forfeitures, etc.) This use 'em and abuse 'em approach to outsourcing violence is not a new phenomena. In fact, the situation that police unions exist to protect their members against was detailed by Niccolo Machiavelli in 16th century, when he provided an account of Cesare Borgia, who was unburdened by heavy scruples, and Remirro de Orco, a brutal but useful man for whom things ended very badly. http://faculty.cua.edu/pennington/churchhistory220/Lecture13/PrinceCesareBorgia.html http://faculty.cua.edu/pennington/churchhistory220/Lecture13...

vidarh 11y ago

The idea that attack police unions is a negative seems pretty bizarre to me. In Europe, the left generally ranges from broadly accepting of (social democrats), to wholeheartedly embracing (many anarchist or other anti-authoritarian groups), the generally very strict limits on the powers granted to police unions vs. other unions, on the basis that large parts of the European left see police as a potential threat to democratic society if their power is left unchecked (whether or not said group have a positive or negative view of police in general), and not insignificant numbers have relatively regular direct run-ins with police in the context of demonstrations etc. E.g. in the UK police has been denied the right to strike is the 1919 Police Act. In Norway police may strike, but only subject to very strict limits on when and how, and with the caveat that the government may at any time declare a continued strike illegal - only a few other groups (military, essential hospital staff and similar) are subject to similarly strict regulation of strikes. The limited strike right is often used as an invitation to substantially limit these unions influence.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
wavefunction 11y ago
Actually responding to jjoonathan here... Both the police and correctional officer unions often donate to the Republicans as much if not more than the Democrat politicians.
- leoc 11y ago
  Relevant: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/394743/its-time-take-police-unions-lucy-morrow-caldwell http://www.nationalreview.com/article/394743/its-time-take-p... And more police-union goodness: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/380455/tax-funded-union-work-jillian-kay-melchior http://www.nationalreview.com/article/380455/tax-funded-unio...
- InTheArena 11y ago
  This appears to be a false statement. In fact, viewing the top contributions, only one of the top twenty is a republican: http://maplight.org/us-congress/interest/L1400 http://maplight.org/us-congress/interest/L1400 Source Please.

tsotha 11y ago

And it always will, because that's where the money comes from. It's a patronage machine - higher salaries --> more money for union supporters --> more union supporters in office --> higher salaries...

malandrew 11y ago

I'm wondering if the best way to do it is to use other unions to do the attacking. Other unions are uniquely positioned to be able to attack things specific to police unions that are out of whack and need to be corrected. They will also possess the nuance to know what rights enable unions to do good and protect those rights.

emn13 11y ago

Turning an societal issue into a game of name-calling ("progressives" this, "conservatives" that) is a sure-fire way to distract from the issue at hand. What's that point of your comment?