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I don't think that's what the article is about. What I read was about a President who to eager to please a population with a sense of national pride. Indonesia

by pan69 11y ago

I don't think that's what the article is about. What I read was about a President who to eager to please a population with a sense of national pride. Indonesia, being a former colony, has obviously a low self esteem and only seem to be able to be ruled by some sort of iron fist which has to show the world that they are really smart, clever and "sovereign". Whether or not the death penalty should have been applied and whether or not this "cures" the drug problem is not really the discussion (I believe). That a small group of people had to sacrifice their lives for political gain, and to prove a point, seems to be a more interesting discussion here. I certainly hope Widodo and his henchmen will be brought in front of an international court to clarify themselves over this.

DominikR 11y ago
"That a small group of people had to sacrifice their lives for political gain" They didn't "sacrifice" their lives, they were drug dealers and found guilty by the courts in Indonesia. There's nothing heroic about dying for this cause. Furthermore it is widely known that Indonesia executes drug dealers no matter where they happen to come from and the Australians surely have known about this "business risk". I'm against the death penalty but I recognize that I have no say about Indonesian laws. This is their own sovereign decision to make. If you don't like this then don't try to sell/import crystal meth or heroin in Indonesia.
- pavlov 11y ago
  There's always a risk of a false positive. People get framed. Police or prosecutors may be corrupt or just pushing for a harsh sentence on shoddy evidence. Judges may be looking to please elected officials who want strong penalties handed out in order to set an example. The latter seems to be happening in Egypt. People are being sentenced to death en masse, hundreds in a single judicial session, on vague charges of rioting: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/04/egyptians-react-mass-death-sentence-201442951751626248.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/04/egyptians-r... There are wrongly convicted people on American death rows: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32178121 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32178121 The death penalty opens a door for the darkest kind of abuse by states against their people. It should not be used as punishment anywhere.
- gaelian 11y ago
  It is however, quite hypocritical that Indonesia has lobbied for their own citizens to be taken off death row in other countries[1] yet they refuse the same for foreigners in Indonesia. I don't disagree with you that the Australians must have known the risks and they chose to go ahead anyway, that was stupid. It is also Indonessia's perogative to enforce their chosen laws as they see fit. But there are political reasons why this whole situation has gone down the way it did, and those reasons are more to do with certain Indonesian politicians wanting to look like strong men in front of their electorates and the international community than it is about any specifics of this case with the Australians in particular. 1. http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/indonesia-got-its-own-citizens-off-death-row-but-aussie-bali-nine-duo-still-await-execution/story-fni0cx12-1227252877434?nk=a481bd1d80ca967407b76ee2af592263 http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/indonesia-got-its-...
- pan69 11y ago
  Why is Indonesia trying so hard to save their own citizens from death row in other countries? E.g. in Saudi Arabia where they are being kept for drug related offences? Try to explain that one in all your sovereigness and self-righteousness. 1) In relation to the two Australians, the Indonesian judges were ordered by Jakatra not to take bribes but hand out the death penalty which I like to see questioned in an international court. 2) The two Australians were taking drug "OUT" of Indonesia. It doesn't make it right, but a death penalty? It's obvious there are other motives here, which again, I'd like to see questioned in an International court. 3) The only reason the Indonesian authorities were able to apprehend the Australians (9 at the time) was because they were tipped off by the Australian Federal Police, not because of their own competence, which is yet another reason why this must be questioned in an international court. Why did the AFP not simply arrest them on their arrival in Australia? This is obviously the Australian government doing a favour to the Indonesian government. One can only speculate the motives (terrorism?)
- dwightgunning 11y ago
  I think the point was phrased incorrectly. Widodo sacrificed the lives of these convicted drug smugglers for his own political gain. To your point about not having a say in Indonesian law, you're somewhat shortsighted. There are diplomatic means of influence such as sanctions and other agreements. Furthermore, as an individual we have a right and an obligation to advocate for what we believe in, regardless of legal jurisdiction. That's how our global society evolves.

by pan69 11y ago

DominikR 11y ago

"That a small group of people had to sacrifice their lives for political gain" They didn't "sacrifice" their lives, they were drug dealers and found guilty by the courts in Indonesia. There's nothing heroic about dying for this cause. Furthermore it is widely known that Indonesia executes drug dealers no matter where they happen to come from and the Australians surely have known about this "business risk". I'm against the death penalty but I recognize that I have no say about Indonesian laws. This is their own sovereign decision to make. If you don't like this then don't try to sell/import crystal meth or heroin in Indonesia.

pavlov 11y ago
There's always a risk of a false positive. People get framed. Police or prosecutors may be corrupt or just pushing for a harsh sentence on shoddy evidence. Judges may be looking to please elected officials who want strong penalties handed out in order to set an example. The latter seems to be happening in Egypt. People are being sentenced to death en masse, hundreds in a single judicial session, on vague charges of rioting: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/04/egyptians-react-mass-death-sentence-201442951751626248.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/04/egyptians-r... There are wrongly convicted people on American death rows: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32178121 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32178121 The death penalty opens a door for the darkest kind of abuse by states against their people. It should not be used as punishment anywhere.
gaelian 11y ago
It is however, quite hypocritical that Indonesia has lobbied for their own citizens to be taken off death row in other countries[1] yet they refuse the same for foreigners in Indonesia. I don't disagree with you that the Australians must have known the risks and they chose to go ahead anyway, that was stupid. It is also Indonessia's perogative to enforce their chosen laws as they see fit. But there are political reasons why this whole situation has gone down the way it did, and those reasons are more to do with certain Indonesian politicians wanting to look like strong men in front of their electorates and the international community than it is about any specifics of this case with the Australians in particular. 1. http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/indonesia-got-its-own-citizens-off-death-row-but-aussie-bali-nine-duo-still-await-execution/story-fni0cx12-1227252877434?nk=a481bd1d80ca967407b76ee2af592263 http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/indonesia-got-its-...
pan69 11y ago
Why is Indonesia trying so hard to save their own citizens from death row in other countries? E.g. in Saudi Arabia where they are being kept for drug related offences? Try to explain that one in all your sovereigness and self-righteousness. 1) In relation to the two Australians, the Indonesian judges were ordered by Jakatra not to take bribes but hand out the death penalty which I like to see questioned in an international court. 2) The two Australians were taking drug "OUT" of Indonesia. It doesn't make it right, but a death penalty? It's obvious there are other motives here, which again, I'd like to see questioned in an International court. 3) The only reason the Indonesian authorities were able to apprehend the Australians (9 at the time) was because they were tipped off by the Australian Federal Police, not because of their own competence, which is yet another reason why this must be questioned in an international court. Why did the AFP not simply arrest them on their arrival in Australia? This is obviously the Australian government doing a favour to the Indonesian government. One can only speculate the motives (terrorism?)
dwightgunning 11y ago
I think the point was phrased incorrectly. Widodo sacrificed the lives of these convicted drug smugglers for his own political gain. To your point about not having a say in Indonesian law, you're somewhat shortsighted. There are diplomatic means of influence such as sanctions and other agreements. Furthermore, as an individual we have a right and an obligation to advocate for what we believe in, regardless of legal jurisdiction. That's how our global society evolves.