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The Cruelest Sport (1992)
- huac 11y agoReminds me of another recent take - http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/fist-to-brain/ http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/fist-to-brain/
- deadlast 11y agoThe killing blows at the end of the Griffith-Paret fight mentioned in the article are worth watching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBNQNwCyYqk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBNQNwCyYqk Cranial trauma is frightening to behold, but it probably can't be separated from the sport.
- ggreer 11y agoThere's one simple way to drastically reduce the amount of brain damage caused by fighting: take off the gloves. Padded gloves and taped wrists allow fighters to throw punches that would never work in a real fight. Without gloves, punching someone in the forehead is a reliable way to hyperextend your wrist or break your hand. Taken in this light, gloves are a weapon. Remove them and fighters would be forced to avoid much of the head. Of course, gloves won't go away. Boxing would be less entertaining without them. People don't want to see fights stopped due to broken hands. They don't want to see disfigured faces (which are practically guaranteed in a bare-knuckle stand-up fight). People want to see spectacular haymakers. They want to see punches flying left and right. Most of all, people want to see knock-outs.
- carussell 11y ago> There's one simple way to drastically reduce the amount of brain damage caused by fighting: take off the gloves. Well, that and not doing the thing to begin with. This and almost all things to do with Everest are similar. They're non-problems.
- agumonkey 11y agoSeriously ? gloves cause more damages than they avoid ? I'd never thought a fist would suffer against a skull, and that without gloves it would be a blood bath.
- lifeformed 11y agoNot directly. Rather, gloves protect your hands, allowing you to punch much harder than you could without them. They don't do much to protect the receiving skull.
- agumonkey 11y agoI'd really hoped they were design to limit damages, diffusing the energy on a larger surface. I was worried that wave could cause a different kind of harm, instead of breaking a jaw, you'd break a neck or cause brain movements. Anyway, it's still disturbing.
- lifeformed 11y agoWell, I'm sure there is an effect of diffusing the energy. However, it's completely cancelled out (and more) by making the puncher punch much harder.
- Swizec 11y agoThey DO limit damage. They make cuts less frequent. But they also increase the frequency of concussive hits.
- rayiner 11y agoSpreading the impact across a larger surface doesn't matter to the other guy's brain. His skull is rigid and is going to distribute the force across the brain anyway. What matters is the total energy transfer. The glove will dissipate some of he energy of the punch by deforming, but it's not rigid so that's not going to be much.
- afarrell 11y agoAt least any brain trauma Pacquiao sustains will be consensual. http://mobile.sportingnews.com/article/4643166-floyd-mayweather-domestic-violence-son-mother-letter-police http://mobile.sportingnews.com/article/4643166-floyd-mayweat...
- harshreality 11y agoYou can't consent to being seriously injured by someone else. (Medical treatments not only require written consent when possible, but are based on competing harms.) Why is there an exception for letting someone try to hit you in the head, repeatedly, for "sport"? It seems like the only reason it's legal is that it wasn't really acknowledged until recently that repeated blows to the head (and the resulting brain and neck/brainstem trauma) could cause serious long-term cognitive deficits, and the legal system hasn't caught up with that yet.
- rayiner 11y ago> It seems like the only reason it's legal is that it wasn't really acknowledged until recently that repeated blows to the head Dementia pugilistica (boxer's dementia) was first described in 1928: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dementia_pugilistica#History http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dementia_pugilistica#History. Doctors have been calling for a ban on boxing since the 1950's.
- atom-morgan 11y ago> You can't consent to being seriously injured by someone else. You can't?
- saint_fiasco 11y agoThe laws are complex and varied, but there are always some things you can't consent to. For example, you can donate your organs but not sell them, you can work for someone else but only so many hours, and some jobs are forbidden, etc. The idea of forbidding certain things even with consent is that pre-committing to not doing those things makes you less vulnerable to blackmail.
- mturmon 11y agoThe article recommends the Ali-Williams fight of 1966: "These early fights, the most brilliant being against Cleveland Williams, in 1966, predate by a decade the long, grueling, punishing fights of Ali’s later career, whose accumulative effects hurt Ali irrevocably..." I just took a look at that fight, which is on YouTube (http://youtu.be/oJUzl0aFHZw http://youtu.be/oJUzl0aFHZw). It lasts only 8 minutes. The opponent is clearly a slugger who is baffled by Ali's style. Ali moves very fast, and fights with his gloves down. I'm not a fan of boxing, but she's right, that fight is an amazing spectacle.
- seizethecheese 11y agoWow. Just watched and I second the recommendation.
- mturmon 11y agoThe announcers were clearly caught flat footed. They kept expecting Williams to land a big punch and turn the fight around. At one point they admit Williams may feel some pain in his nose next morning. (Yeah, seems like.) Ali kept dancing around Williams' efforts and landing that left jab.
- IkmoIkmo 11y agoIndeed, quite a spectacle. It's one of the things that made Ali special, he completely dominated the game in his younger years with speed and nimbleness that had scarcely been seen before in the heavyweight division. Then he went to jail because he famously refused to fight in Vietnam ("No vietcong ever called me a ngr"), which was quite brave as if he had served he'd be loved by the vast majority in the US, continued to box, and never have to fight or risk his life, as he would be doing boxing exhibitions for soldier morale, campaigning etc. He refused purely out of (political) ideology. Anyway, all that aside, what I wanted to say is what made him special is that when he got out everyone considered him to be too slow. He changed, he wasn't fast any longer, and older. Yet he was able to still dominate the weight class with a completely different style, at the expense of his body. It's not often we see that. Most fighters who lose their speed never stand a chance to even lesser fighters. It's like Mayweather losing the shoulder roll and still dominating. And it surprised many at the time, it's hard to imagine but Ali, unlike the champions we think of today (like tonights fight) went into many of his later fights as an underdog, the fight against Foreman being the most famous. Foreman was considered an absolute beast, knocking out within 2 rounds (brutally) people like Norton and Frazier, amazing fighters who Ali himself had already lost to. Add to that an Ali way past his prime who had lost his greatest asset: his speed. That was remarkable. The Ali in your video against Williams was as great as the Ali against Foreman, but completely and totally different in style, strategy and capacity. It's one of those things that don't show up on the scorecards (of say a Mayweather, who never lost and has been a world champ for like 17 years in a row now, compared to Ali who retired with 5 losses), reasons for which most boxing experts don't even have Mayweather in their top 20, no joke, while ali regularly makes a top 5, even though Mayweather is an absolutely brilliant fighter, too. Thanks for the vid, good memories :)
- MisterWalter 11y agoI think it's worth noting that MMA fighters don't tend to suffer as many injuries. Boxing's strict ruleset forces fighters to beat eachother into putty to win, but other fights can be won without (as many) concussions.
- TheCondor 11y agoIs there concrete data to back that up? There have been terrible bone breaks and joint damage in mma. It also seems too young to know if there will be the same neurological issues. It could be true but it also sounds like marketing.
- tmuir 11y agoThe difference in MMA is that as soon as a fighter is not intelligently defending themselves, the ref stops the fight. There is a much lower standard for a technical knockout. There are many stoppages that occur after "flash" knockouts, where the fighter is only unconscious for a brief moment. Usually the fighter will protest, as he doesn't even realize it's happened. In boxing, a flash knockout doesn't end the fight, as long as the fighter gets back up. In a boxing match, this could happen twice every round without ending the fight. I also wonder if the ability to wrestle in MMA plays a role. In boxing, as soon as the fighters clinch, the ref breaks up the fighters. In MMA, it's rare to see fighters stand within each other's range and throw full powered punches for extended periods.
- maxxxxx 11y agoFrom my experience MMA fighters and kickboxers spar extremely hard. Boxers seem to be a little smarter that way. I expect that a lot of amateur MMA fighters will end up with brain damage from training even if competitions may be a little safer.
- natejenkins 11y agoI've boxed exactly twice in my life. Neither time was against a trained boxer, it just so happened that someone had a few pairs of boxing gloves lying around. My main take away was that getting punched in the face sucks way more than you think it would. Counter-intuitively, if you get punched in the face enough it eventually stops hurting at all. Time slows down. Your arms drop. Your mind drifts to thoughts totally unrelated to boxing. During the first "match" my opponent, also a friend, left me a gentle nudge away from getting knocked out. Although not quite enjoyable, I am glad to have had the experience. All other sports are now erring on the side of caution when it comes to concussions, especially American football. In boxing the whole point is to give the other guy a concussion. You don't fall down from getting knocked over, you fall down because your body forgets how to stand up. And once that happens, which is some form of minor (or major) concussion, everyone cheers you on, encouraging you to stand back up so that you can get concussed again. Amazing.
- Swizec 11y ago> Neither time was against a trained boxer As a boxer who trains 3x/week, spars as often as possible, but doesn't compete, I can tell you that sparring newbies is the worst. They get too afraid, too tense, and put all their strength into every punch. Instead of fun technical boxing, you get a boring slugfest. Great way to get injured. Lousy way to learn how to box. > getting punched in the face sucks way more than you think it would Maybe I have the proverbial strong chin, but I never found getting punched in the face with a boxing glove to be that bad. Sure it's disorienting the first time it happens, but it's really not that bad. Boxing gloves distribute the blow over your whole face really nicely. I strongly recommend that the next time you try boxing, you go against a trained fighter. You'll have a much better time of it.
- natejenkins 11y agoHey, thanks for providing a boxer's perspective. While you're here, I have a couple random questions: Do you always spar with headgear, mostly with headgear, or never with headgear? Can a boxer make a living as a sparring partner? How much is weight an advantage? Is 5 pounds massive, minor, or inconsequential? Finally, have you ever received a liver shot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liver_shot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liver_shot? I'm impressed with anyone who will get in the ring. I might try it again one day with headgear. It's a spectacular workout and I'm sure it would be fun if you could get beyond the pain and fear and start using different tactics and strategies.
- a8da6b0c91d 11y agoThis article is ignorant of the history of boxing as it relates to duels. For centuries a serious affront called for a duel of some form: glove thrown, pistols or foils at dawn, all that shit. Not even slightly rare; it happened constantly. The point of boxing's queensberry rules was no guns or swords or deliberate maiming, may the best man win and the loser sulk off alive with humility. Boxing was a force for civilization. For many years the brits derided the french and germans for still resorting to lethal duels whereas proper englishmen settled things with fists. As recently as the 1920s dueling was still a big thing in much of the white world. Many places you had a legally protected right to challenge. It's kind of still a big thing in the black ghetto leading to many deaths. I think they need a more proper and formalized social outlet than street-stompings and shootings. Personally, I think it's a widespread problem that you can't ask a man way over the line to shut up and apologize or step into the ring. People talk about the decline of manners. The essential reason for that is if you went well over the line back in the day you had to be ready to get punched in the face.
- mturmon 11y agoYour last paragraph is nutty. You are suggesting that it's a contemporary problem that we can't settle our petty grievances by fighting? It's not often that I get to quote kindergarten slogans to good effect on HN, but might does not make right. I've been given a beatdown by a person who thought I had wronged them, and I'm here to say it's a pretty useless exercise.
- a8da6b0c91d 11y ago> It's not often that I get to quote kindergarten slogans to good effect You sound like a man who needs to experience a few rounds. Get thee to a gym.
- morpheous 11y agoA rather strange choice of words: ".... boxing’s very intentions are obscene, which sets it apart, theoretically at least, from purer (i.e., Caucasian) establishment sports ..."