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I think that the conversation covers lots of knowns and unsurprising actions on both the suit wearer's and the suit observer's side of perception. The real con

I think that the conversation covers lots of knowns and unsurprising actions on both the suit wearer's and the suit observer's side of perception. The real conversation should be how to rid the world of formality? I personally feel ill every time I have to wear anything that others consider formal business wear. I was a technical project manager (forgive me) for a few years and I felt like a traitor every time I sat with a group of engineers who all were wearing what makes us comfortable: GNU hacker t-shirts, jeans and Dr. Martens (or variations thereof). When I see suits, I think of keywords like "deceit" and "materialism" and "shallow". I also feel like people in suits are being subjugated, no matter how high up the totem pole they think they are. I grew up painfully poor, so I assume much of my opinion and reaction to seeing a suit comes from feeling the vast economic divide between me and people in suits, much the way I feel a sickness and anger when I see people in cars like Mercedes, BMW and Jaguar. Suits make people think differently. But for the right reasons? I will never "suit up", personally, by choice.

RobertKerans 11y ago
As a small counterpoint to this, though I do understand the social aspect of suits [that you disagree with], bear in mind that the entire point of the garment, silhouette aside[1], is to be an extremely comfortable piece of clothing that fits a person absolutely perfectly. The cost is a side effect of the fact tailoring is extremely time intensive, and depends on very high-quality materials (in addition to social cachet cost) [1] by silhouette, I mean the shaping of the figure via structuring of the garment. Full disclosure: I originally trained in tailoring before becoming a developer
- christianbryant 11y ago
  An excellent point. As a maker, I have great respect for those who make in all industries (which is why this reaction I have can be frustrating). Admission: Project Runway is a favorite of mine despite its deep roots in a highly materialistic and commercial industry. I appreciate the hacker and maker ethic many of these designers represent.
Jedd 11y ago
Interesting viewpoint. Up until the keyword association, you were in a moderately defensible position. But deceit, materialism and shallow -- associating those sensations with what some people wear is some regrettable kind of -ism. How do you feel, in a group of engineers, if someone choose to not wear Dr Martens (or something comparably expensive)? If a collared shirt is worn, something casual and comfortable say, have they also abandoned everything you think they should hold dear about being an engineer?
- teacup50 11y ago
  So we should only accept the intended signaling of people's clothing choices, and never think any deeper about why they made signaling clothing choices? There's a wide range of choices between wearing clothes that are well suited to what you'll physically be doing in them, and wearing clothes suited to signaling something about yourself, and where clothing falls in that range does say something about the wearer.
  - christianbryant 11y ago
    I think we should all take a second look at what clothes "mean". I maintain my distaste for expensive and overly formal clothing, since it flies in the face of poverty and those who have little in America. But I concede that it helps nobody to attack a person or front-load judgement of them based solely on their appearance...
- christianbryant 11y ago
  The associations may be regrettable, but they are mine and how they got there, and how they are to be overturned, are up for debate. I don't think them wrong or right. I do judge people by their work, especially me, and ultimately would never let just the shell tell a person's story :-)
fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
>I was a technical project manager Why apologize? One of my favorite former colleagues ever was a PM. I loved working for/with him. When he was around, he was a bit like having a personal concierge/bouncer. If anyone else in the company bothered someone who was working on one of his projects, he'd chase them away, post haste; most of the time nobody ever even got close. He wore sneakers, crappy cargo pants, and tshirts. HR hated him. He could be a bit stubborn about technical decisions when he thought they were within his area of competence, but he was a knowledgeable guy. When he wasn't needed, he left the engineers alone. Anyway, I was happy to work with this guy and I never felt like he was "above me" even though he certainly was in terms of pay. PS I like old Mercedes diesels, when you see one, don't be angry, that car is helping to bridge the economic divide. No, really, they are dirt cheap cars, and pretty well built.
- christianbryant 11y ago
  I was typing fast - "forgive me" was in case anyone who is a technical pm thought I was dragging the title through the dirt :-) My guilt had nothing to do with the role itself!
jjoonathan 11y ago
> I also feel like people in suits are being subjugated, no matter how high up the totem pole they think they are. Well, according to OP they are subject to a prisoner's dilemma and have chosen "defect" which is definitely a form of subjugation, albeit in the sense of fashion rather than economics. On this basis alone I think a certain amount of "anti-suit" culture is probably healthy, regardless of whether one believes that rebellion is just another kind of conformity or whether one believes that the economic implications mirror the fashion implications. > When I see suits, I think of keywords like "deceit" and "materialism" and "shallow". I tend to agree, but I think most people take an amoral approach: they look at the suit and the positive impression of "power" outweighs the negative impression of "what power does" or "how power is obtained."
- christianbryant 11y ago
  Yes, the suit is often a tool for the social engineer who can sense who has the outlook that a certain cut, style, material and/or silhouette represents earned respect, and causes some people to fully drop their guard. I do wonder how different the interview process would be were we all allowed to wear whatever we felt the most comfortable in.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

RobertKerans 11y ago

As a small counterpoint to this, though I do understand the social aspect of suits [that you disagree with], bear in mind that the entire point of the garment, silhouette aside[1], is to be an extremely comfortable piece of clothing that fits a person absolutely perfectly. The cost is a side effect of the fact tailoring is extremely time intensive, and depends on very high-quality materials (in addition to social cachet cost) [1] by silhouette, I mean the shaping of the figure via structuring of the garment. Full disclosure: I originally trained in tailoring before becoming a developer

christianbryant 11y ago
An excellent point. As a maker, I have great respect for those who make in all industries (which is why this reaction I have can be frustrating). Admission: Project Runway is a favorite of mine despite its deep roots in a highly materialistic and commercial industry. I appreciate the hacker and maker ethic many of these designers represent.

Jedd 11y ago

Interesting viewpoint. Up until the keyword association, you were in a moderately defensible position. But deceit, materialism and shallow -- associating those sensations with what some people wear is some regrettable kind of -ism. How do you feel, in a group of engineers, if someone choose to not wear Dr Martens (or something comparably expensive)? If a collared shirt is worn, something casual and comfortable say, have they also abandoned everything you think they should hold dear about being an engineer?

teacup50 11y ago
So we should only accept the intended signaling of people's clothing choices, and never think any deeper about why they made signaling clothing choices? There's a wide range of choices between wearing clothes that are well suited to what you'll physically be doing in them, and wearing clothes suited to signaling something about yourself, and where clothing falls in that range does say something about the wearer.
- christianbryant 11y ago
  I think we should all take a second look at what clothes "mean". I maintain my distaste for expensive and overly formal clothing, since it flies in the face of poverty and those who have little in America. But I concede that it helps nobody to attack a person or front-load judgement of them based solely on their appearance...
christianbryant 11y ago
The associations may be regrettable, but they are mine and how they got there, and how they are to be overturned, are up for debate. I don't think them wrong or right. I do judge people by their work, especially me, and ultimately would never let just the shell tell a person's story :-)

fnordfnordfnord 11y ago

>I was a technical project manager Why apologize? One of my favorite former colleagues ever was a PM. I loved working for/with him. When he was around, he was a bit like having a personal concierge/bouncer. If anyone else in the company bothered someone who was working on one of his projects, he'd chase them away, post haste; most of the time nobody ever even got close. He wore sneakers, crappy cargo pants, and tshirts. HR hated him. He could be a bit stubborn about technical decisions when he thought they were within his area of competence, but he was a knowledgeable guy. When he wasn't needed, he left the engineers alone. Anyway, I was happy to work with this guy and I never felt like he was "above me" even though he certainly was in terms of pay. PS I like old Mercedes diesels, when you see one, don't be angry, that car is helping to bridge the economic divide. No, really, they are dirt cheap cars, and pretty well built.

christianbryant 11y ago
I was typing fast - "forgive me" was in case anyone who is a technical pm thought I was dragging the title through the dirt :-) My guilt had nothing to do with the role itself!

jjoonathan 11y ago

> I also feel like people in suits are being subjugated, no matter how high up the totem pole they think they are. Well, according to OP they are subject to a prisoner's dilemma and have chosen "defect" which is definitely a form of subjugation, albeit in the sense of fashion rather than economics. On this basis alone I think a certain amount of "anti-suit" culture is probably healthy, regardless of whether one believes that rebellion is just another kind of conformity or whether one believes that the economic implications mirror the fashion implications. > When I see suits, I think of keywords like "deceit" and "materialism" and "shallow". I tend to agree, but I think most people take an amoral approach: they look at the suit and the positive impression of "power" outweighs the negative impression of "what power does" or "how power is obtained."

christianbryant 11y ago
Yes, the suit is often a tool for the social engineer who can sense who has the outlook that a certain cut, style, material and/or silhouette represents earned respect, and causes some people to fully drop their guard. I do wonder how different the interview process would be were we all allowed to wear whatever we felt the most comfortable in.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]