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> They’ve done studies at Harvard Business School where they’ve found that the largest cohort always went into the wrong field. So in 1989, they all went to wor

> They’ve done studies at Harvard Business School where they’ve found that the largest cohort always went into the wrong field. So in 1989, they all went to work for Michael Milken, a year or two before he went to jail. They were never interested in Silicon Valley except for 1999, 2000. They're interested in Silicon Valley now. Here's an actual conversation I had recently with a business school student (not verbatim obviously, but accurate as far as content): Me: What are you doing after you graduate from HBS this spring? MBA: I want to do startups. Me: Oh cool, do you know which one you're going to work for? MBA: Oh no, I want to start a startup. Me: Oh okay, what's it going to do? MBA: Don't know yet! Me: Oh...

skrebbel 12y ago
What's wrong with that? IMO wanting to be an entrepreneur is one of the best reasons to start a company :)
- dataker 12y ago
  The problem comes when MBAs, generally without technical background, build companies without real value and expand an already existing bubble.
  - cinquemb 12y ago
    And plenty of devs go and work for such companies and individuals… One would think we'd come up with better ways by now to lessen the allocation of resources for things in the present that are of marginal utility for most people, but somehow, humans have a knack of creating/engaging red queens races relative to other things that are theoretically possible and feasible.
    - dataker 12y ago
      Becomes hard to turn down a compensation that could be 1.5-2x larger than others.
      - jacquesm 12y ago
        More likely: 0.8 times what you'd make elsewhere but a significant chunk of equity (0.0001% or so, vesting over 5 years...).
      - cinquemb 12y ago
        Most start ups (and large co's) are offering devs to work on pretty much the same thing, which in my opinion is very easy to turn down and actively avoid… 1.5x, 2x (at best for most) to ship marginally interesting projects that will probably provide not much more than marginal utility for most people while being around people who will pretend (or believe) otherwise… yeah…
  - Xcelerate 12y ago
    I don't think I would join a startup that wasn't founded by people with some kind of technical degree.
    - k__ 12y ago
      Same here. But it seems to be a thing. Best email I got from a start-up that wanted to hire me went something like this: "We are a team of 5 MBAs with an idea and need you to be our employee #1 to build it!" I mean 5 founders seems rather excessive to me but all of them MBAs and the only technical person will be an employee and not a co founder.
      - foobarian 12y ago
        Maybe it's not such a bad idea. Someone has to do the no-fun work of sales, promotion, taxes, etc., might be nice to have a bunch of MBAs around to do that. Could also ask for 40% equity or so.
    - prostoalex 12y ago
      For some companies the core value is the tech they produce, and thus having non-tech people at the helm makes little sense. Others, usually also dubbed "tech startups" due to their Silicon Valley location, use generic pieces of technology to achieve their purpose. There are entire sectors (ad tech, Uber for X), where basic building blocks have been built and now it's sell, sell, sell.
  - ryandrake 12y ago
    What about MBAs WITH technical backgrounds? Are they allowed to build companies?
    - hnnewguy 12y ago
      I get the impression from HN commentary that the minute you receive your MBA you become a sociopath whose IQ drops 40 points.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
    - dataker 12y ago
      MBAs with technical background usually have a BS in STEM and go work to a bank/corporation in finance/management positions. Hence, they are not actual engineers actively building a product. Please do build a company, but not a money-making scheme treating developers like dispensable tools.
  - michalu 12y ago
    Indeed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wharton_School_alumni http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wharton_School_alumni with all due respect it's a bit tiring to hear about all those 'uselss MBA' stereotypes. There's a substance to it but I start to feel that 9 out of 10 comments like this one reflect the insecurity of the author rather than anything else. One of the people not mentioned on the list is founder of Warby Parker - surely he contributed to the bubble by building the 2nd most profitable retail stores and one of the few startups that are actually profitable.
    - dataker 12y ago
      With all due respect, if you're a MBA, you've just followed such stereotype. So what I didn't even graduate college? I'm proud to have built a company whose employees are happy and treated with dignity. Diligence, respect and passion drove people like me to success, not a HBS MBA. From experience, that's not what usually happens with MBAs. Because of an 'alumni list' or a privileged network, many feel entitled to success and will do anything to reach their goals(often unethically).
- michaelochurch 12y ago
  Most of these people (not all of whom are MBAs) just want to be bosses, not entrepreneurs. Their goal is to be executives ("big picture guys") shouting orders, not worker bees, but they don't have the social resources to make it happen in an existing company so they drum up some seed funding and hire some engineers (usually, scraping the bottom) and try to kick something together. It doesn't work very often. "I want to be an executive" is a pretty fucking lame vision, as it were. I'd rather be around people who have concrete ideas of what they want to build, and who'll lead when appropriate and follow when appropriate. People who say, "I'm a leader" but don't have a good sense of where they want to lead, are annoying. What they're really saying is, "I think that, based on some linear combination of pre-existing socioeconomic resources and inflated self-image, I have the right to a job where I tell other people what to do." I don't think that all MBAs are douchebags. I know plenty whom I like a lot. Unfortunately, the culture of business school and especially the elite business schools is one of entitlement and position-seeking. When that type of person founds a startup, you get a lot of the same toxic big-company behaviors and formalities and political structures, but in a small company that can't afford the inefficiencies. Now you have the worst of both worlds between small companies and big ones, and a high likelihood of failure or, if the connections are there, Knewton-esque mediocrity. Oddly enough, if I had a child I'd recommend that he go to the highest-ranking business school out there. Harvard is going to open doors that are just ridiculous, whereas the #20 school is probably educationally equivalent, but isn't going to make you a CEO at 30. On the other hand, if I were hiring, I'd be extremely skeptical of the Harvard MBA and less skeptical of the Booth MBA and even less skeptical of the UWash MBA. In most educational divisions, the correlation between prestige and douchebaggery is nonexistent, i.e. Yale law students aren't noticeably douchier, or less douchey, than students at middling schools; in MBA school, it's clearly a positive correlation (although Stanford is probably worse than Harvard, though less prestigious, for obvious reasons).
  - cma 12y ago
    "linear combination of pre-existing socioeconomic resources and inflated self-image" What do you mean here by linear combination? If you wrote the same thing and said nonlinear combination would we have come away with a different interpretation? Is this just injecting random math terms to raise the status and credibility of the speaker? It's a problem I see in a certain non-MBA culture (and am guilty of myself all the time too). Or maybe I'm just missing something about what you meant.
hnnewguy 12y ago
Obviously, the person from your anecdote is representative of MBAs in general, right? If not, what's the point of the comment? I have a stupid conversation with someone from some occupation every day.
crdb 12y ago
In a couple of years, your conversation will sound like this: You: so, what are you doing these days? MBA: well, I've been at McBainCitiGold for a couple years, but I'm getting bored, I'd like to start up! You: oh really? Go for it! I really don't regret doing it myself. MBA: yeah, but I'm just waiting for the right idea. And the salaries are too low. The kids, school, car, condo... By the way, do you have any ideas? Wait a few more years and this time they'll tell you about how they'd like to invest in startups, but the entrepreneurs ask for too much, so they just had to invest it in property instead. Or are on their 17th meeting with a poor founder who for some reason (location, CV, lack of connections) is stuck raising from this type of amateur angel, unable to pull the trigger and "keeping options open". This being said, I don't blame them. Startup life (outside the megafunded) is tough, has low expected value, requires sub-optimal life decisions (goodbye family) and, I think, only fits certain types of people who are very independent minded and enjoy that kind of challenge. The MBAs I know who did it with the express intent of getting on with a company fit that type, and one of them has hired his 100th employee last year. When I hear a corporate type say "oh, I'd like to do startups" I think it's pretty similar to hearing many people say "I'd love to try the military". A passing thought, either being polite (admiring your life choices) or to be rapidly dismissed once encountering what those career paths entail.

skrebbel 12y ago

What's wrong with that? IMO wanting to be an entrepreneur is one of the best reasons to start a company :)

dataker 12y ago
The problem comes when MBAs, generally without technical background, build companies without real value and expand an already existing bubble.
- cinquemb 12y ago
  And plenty of devs go and work for such companies and individuals… One would think we'd come up with better ways by now to lessen the allocation of resources for things in the present that are of marginal utility for most people, but somehow, humans have a knack of creating/engaging red queens races relative to other things that are theoretically possible and feasible.
  - dataker 12y ago
    Becomes hard to turn down a compensation that could be 1.5-2x larger than others.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      More likely: 0.8 times what you'd make elsewhere but a significant chunk of equity (0.0001% or so, vesting over 5 years...).
    - cinquemb 12y ago
      Most start ups (and large co's) are offering devs to work on pretty much the same thing, which in my opinion is very easy to turn down and actively avoid… 1.5x, 2x (at best for most) to ship marginally interesting projects that will probably provide not much more than marginal utility for most people while being around people who will pretend (or believe) otherwise… yeah…
- Xcelerate 12y ago
  I don't think I would join a startup that wasn't founded by people with some kind of technical degree.
  - k__ 12y ago
    Same here. But it seems to be a thing. Best email I got from a start-up that wanted to hire me went something like this: "We are a team of 5 MBAs with an idea and need you to be our employee #1 to build it!" I mean 5 founders seems rather excessive to me but all of them MBAs and the only technical person will be an employee and not a co founder.
    - foobarian 12y ago
      Maybe it's not such a bad idea. Someone has to do the no-fun work of sales, promotion, taxes, etc., might be nice to have a bunch of MBAs around to do that. Could also ask for 40% equity or so.
  - prostoalex 12y ago
    For some companies the core value is the tech they produce, and thus having non-tech people at the helm makes little sense. Others, usually also dubbed "tech startups" due to their Silicon Valley location, use generic pieces of technology to achieve their purpose. There are entire sectors (ad tech, Uber for X), where basic building blocks have been built and now it's sell, sell, sell.
- ryandrake 12y ago
  What about MBAs WITH technical backgrounds? Are they allowed to build companies?
  - hnnewguy 12y ago
    I get the impression from HN commentary that the minute you receive your MBA you become a sociopath whose IQ drops 40 points.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  - dataker 12y ago
    MBAs with technical background usually have a BS in STEM and go work to a bank/corporation in finance/management positions. Hence, they are not actual engineers actively building a product. Please do build a company, but not a money-making scheme treating developers like dispensable tools.
- michalu 12y ago
  Indeed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wharton_School_alumni http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wharton_School_alumni with all due respect it's a bit tiring to hear about all those 'uselss MBA' stereotypes. There's a substance to it but I start to feel that 9 out of 10 comments like this one reflect the insecurity of the author rather than anything else. One of the people not mentioned on the list is founder of Warby Parker - surely he contributed to the bubble by building the 2nd most profitable retail stores and one of the few startups that are actually profitable.
  - dataker 12y ago
    With all due respect, if you're a MBA, you've just followed such stereotype. So what I didn't even graduate college? I'm proud to have built a company whose employees are happy and treated with dignity. Diligence, respect and passion drove people like me to success, not a HBS MBA. From experience, that's not what usually happens with MBAs. Because of an 'alumni list' or a privileged network, many feel entitled to success and will do anything to reach their goals(often unethically).
michaelochurch 12y ago
Most of these people (not all of whom are MBAs) just want to be bosses, not entrepreneurs. Their goal is to be executives ("big picture guys") shouting orders, not worker bees, but they don't have the social resources to make it happen in an existing company so they drum up some seed funding and hire some engineers (usually, scraping the bottom) and try to kick something together. It doesn't work very often. "I want to be an executive" is a pretty fucking lame vision, as it were. I'd rather be around people who have concrete ideas of what they want to build, and who'll lead when appropriate and follow when appropriate. People who say, "I'm a leader" but don't have a good sense of where they want to lead, are annoying. What they're really saying is, "I think that, based on some linear combination of pre-existing socioeconomic resources and inflated self-image, I have the right to a job where I tell other people what to do." I don't think that all MBAs are douchebags. I know plenty whom I like a lot. Unfortunately, the culture of business school and especially the elite business schools is one of entitlement and position-seeking. When that type of person founds a startup, you get a lot of the same toxic big-company behaviors and formalities and political structures, but in a small company that can't afford the inefficiencies. Now you have the worst of both worlds between small companies and big ones, and a high likelihood of failure or, if the connections are there, Knewton-esque mediocrity. Oddly enough, if I had a child I'd recommend that he go to the highest-ranking business school out there. Harvard is going to open doors that are just ridiculous, whereas the #20 school is probably educationally equivalent, but isn't going to make you a CEO at 30. On the other hand, if I were hiring, I'd be extremely skeptical of the Harvard MBA and less skeptical of the Booth MBA and even less skeptical of the UWash MBA. In most educational divisions, the correlation between prestige and douchebaggery is nonexistent, i.e. Yale law students aren't noticeably douchier, or less douchey, than students at middling schools; in MBA school, it's clearly a positive correlation (although Stanford is probably worse than Harvard, though less prestigious, for obvious reasons).
- cma 12y ago
  "linear combination of pre-existing socioeconomic resources and inflated self-image" What do you mean here by linear combination? If you wrote the same thing and said nonlinear combination would we have come away with a different interpretation? Is this just injecting random math terms to raise the status and credibility of the speaker? It's a problem I see in a certain non-MBA culture (and am guilty of myself all the time too). Or maybe I'm just missing something about what you meant.

hnnewguy 12y ago

Obviously, the person from your anecdote is representative of MBAs in general, right? If not, what's the point of the comment? I have a stupid conversation with someone from some occupation every day.

crdb 12y ago

In a couple of years, your conversation will sound like this: You: so, what are you doing these days? MBA: well, I've been at McBainCitiGold for a couple years, but I'm getting bored, I'd like to start up! You: oh really? Go for it! I really don't regret doing it myself. MBA: yeah, but I'm just waiting for the right idea. And the salaries are too low. The kids, school, car, condo... By the way, do you have any ideas? Wait a few more years and this time they'll tell you about how they'd like to invest in startups, but the entrepreneurs ask for too much, so they just had to invest it in property instead. Or are on their 17th meeting with a poor founder who for some reason (location, CV, lack of connections) is stuck raising from this type of amateur angel, unable to pull the trigger and "keeping options open". This being said, I don't blame them. Startup life (outside the megafunded) is tough, has low expected value, requires sub-optimal life decisions (goodbye family) and, I think, only fits certain types of people who are very independent minded and enjoy that kind of challenge. The MBAs I know who did it with the express intent of getting on with a company fit that type, and one of them has hired his 100th employee last year. When I hear a corporate type say "oh, I'd like to do startups" I think it's pretty similar to hearing many people say "I'd love to try the military". A passing thought, either being polite (admiring your life choices) or to be rapidly dismissed once encountering what those career paths entail.