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Yes, one might think so, but this was the CEO in question[1]. Edit, and so far as bluffing, could an employer legally ask for W2's to verify? [1] http://www.ny

Yes, one might think so, but this was the CEO in question[1]. Edit, and so far as bluffing, could an employer legally ask for W2's to verify? [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/05/business/stinging-office-memo-boomerangs-chief-executive-criticized-after-upbraiding.html http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/05/business/stinging-office-m...

eli 12y ago
IANAL, but I don't see why that would be illegal. There are very few things that it's actually illegal for an employer to ask about. (Though it would obviously be a bad idea to ask a candidate about their status in a protected class, it's not technically illegal to ask.) That said, this is a bad idea because it would scare off plenty of people who aren't bluffing about their salary (like me). And there are already employers who will terminate you immediately if they discover you lied in your job application.
- JoblessWonder 12y ago
  > There are very few things that it's actually illegal for an employer to ask about. I guess it depends on your definition of "very few things" but this list[1] of Unlawful vs. Lawful questions seems pretty long/wide ranging. And I know that the small business I worked for violated it on a regular basis. I actually had it sent out to each person who does interviewing (since the company didn't have a formal policy on training someone for interviews) so they knew what was/wasn't acceptable. [1]https://www.stat.washington.edu/jobs/questions/ https://www.stat.washington.edu/jobs/questions/
  - defen 12y ago
    Note: I'm not a lawyer so don't take this as legal advice. My understanding is that it is illegal to use any of those things to discriminate against someone for purposes of hiring. It's not technically illegal to ask the question, but if you do, and you don't hire the person, have fun in court trying to prove that you didn't hire them for some other, valid, reason. So don't ask them, because there's no upside in it for you.
civilian 12y ago
They can't legally ask for proof, no. Bluff away! (I'm not a lawyer and this does not constitute legal advice.) I did a small bluff to try it out, just 5k above what I was making. The recruiter was surprisingly skeptical! I know I've done an good job of bumping up my salary in a short amount of time, but it was kind of off-putting to have him question it.
- jsprogrammer 12y ago
  But he was right to question it?
  - civilian 12y ago
    I suppose so? If I was a recruiter I wouldn't question what I thought was a 5k discrepancy. I was doing well though--- making 90k after 3 years of programming, and my bluff was 95k. I think that just the real salary alone would have been enough for him to raise suspicions.
    - eropple 12y ago
      Depends on the area, I guess. I don't think people would have blinked in SF or Boston at that. Or he was screwing with you to try to drag down your ask. Happens pretty frequently, because their incentives don't align with yours (it's the realtor problem all over again).
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - bigtunacan 12y ago
        While dealing with recruiters can be a hassle their goals align much more closely with ours if we are maintaining the fallacy that only the money counts. Recruiters are typically paid a percentage of your salary so they want you to receive the highest salary possible since that is the best payout for them as well. My experience with recruiters is they want to know how little it will take for you to accept the job, but this is because they need to know which jobs they should do the legwork on. If I'm looking for a job I call up several recruiters I trust and I tell them the specifics I'd what I'm looking for and the price I'm willing to accept. I then continue working my network and looking on my own, but now I have 4 times as many jobs and a better chance if finding the perfect fit.
JoblessWonder 12y ago
We regularly get requests for job title/tenure/salary verification forms from former employees. I'm not sure what our status on completing them is though, but there are at least some companies out there that go through the legwork to check up on something after a job offer.
- fredkbloggs 12y ago
  If you have a corporate lawyer and/or experienced HR director, you do the same thing everyone does: inform the questioner of the individual's dates of employment and nothing else.
  - toomuchtodo 12y ago
    And if you don't have intelligent HR/legal counsel, you're on the receiving end of a lawsuit by said previous employee.
    - pekk 12y ago
      Only if that employee has the time and money to waste on the lawsuit, and has any evidence in hand to make it go. How is that employee supposed to discover this? By fraudulently pretending to be a prospective employer?
ajju 12y ago
You certainly shouldn't share your salary, much less provide a W2, for most positions. However, not only is it not illegal to ask for a W2, for most sales positions it is the norm. The reason is that sales people make most of their money on commissions in most places, and checking how much they made in commissions in previous years is the simplest way to figure out how effective they have been in past positions. There is an altogether separate discussion about whether commission heavy compensation works better or not though.
j_lev 12y ago
In the original post Patrick already touched on the Japan case, but one thing I'd add is that one of the pieces of paperwork you must hand to your new employer is your final tax slip from your previous employer showing how much tax you have paid in the current year. From there it's trivial to calculate your previous salary. There are ways around it but it seems most people go with "my base was XX.... and that's one of the reasons I'm out there looking to change jobs."
- ars 12y ago
  > your final tax slip from your previous employer showing how much tax you have paid in the current year. Do you mean in Japan or the US? Because you certainly don't have to do that in the US. > From there it's trivial to calculate your previous salary. And even if you did do it in the US it would be impossible to calculate your salary from it because it depends on how many exemptions you claimed in your W4 (which you can change at any time - it doesn't have to be how many children you have, it's basically a number to fine tune how much tax you pay so you don't overpay and need a refund).
- a_c_s 12y ago
  "...one of the pieces of paperwork you must hand to your new employer is your final tax slip from your previous employer showing how much tax you have paid in the current year..." Are you referring to Japan? I've worked in two states in the USA and never been required to produce such documentation.
  - heleph 12y ago
    I've always had to do that in the UK. Your previous employer gives you a form called a P45 when you leave that has information about your tax code and your earnings for the previous year.
    - zhte415 12y ago
      Correct. A difference for the UK is that salary bands are often (not always) disclosed in an advertisement or told to a head hunter in advance. Not always, but enough that not doing so raises eyebrows and concerns about corporate ethics for me (and my friends).
rgovind 12y ago
I don't know about US, but in India, its standard practive to ask for previous paychecks.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- biafra 12y ago
  It is standard to ask in Germany too. But do they get an honest answer or expect an answer at all? I always say what I want instead.

eli 12y ago

IANAL, but I don't see why that would be illegal. There are very few things that it's actually illegal for an employer to ask about. (Though it would obviously be a bad idea to ask a candidate about their status in a protected class, it's not technically illegal to ask.) That said, this is a bad idea because it would scare off plenty of people who aren't bluffing about their salary (like me). And there are already employers who will terminate you immediately if they discover you lied in your job application.

JoblessWonder 12y ago
> There are very few things that it's actually illegal for an employer to ask about. I guess it depends on your definition of "very few things" but this list[1] of Unlawful vs. Lawful questions seems pretty long/wide ranging. And I know that the small business I worked for violated it on a regular basis. I actually had it sent out to each person who does interviewing (since the company didn't have a formal policy on training someone for interviews) so they knew what was/wasn't acceptable. [1]https://www.stat.washington.edu/jobs/questions/ https://www.stat.washington.edu/jobs/questions/
- defen 12y ago
  Note: I'm not a lawyer so don't take this as legal advice. My understanding is that it is illegal to use any of those things to discriminate against someone for purposes of hiring. It's not technically illegal to ask the question, but if you do, and you don't hire the person, have fun in court trying to prove that you didn't hire them for some other, valid, reason. So don't ask them, because there's no upside in it for you.

civilian 12y ago

They can't legally ask for proof, no. Bluff away! (I'm not a lawyer and this does not constitute legal advice.) I did a small bluff to try it out, just 5k above what I was making. The recruiter was surprisingly skeptical! I know I've done an good job of bumping up my salary in a short amount of time, but it was kind of off-putting to have him question it.

jsprogrammer 12y ago
But he was right to question it?
- civilian 12y ago
  I suppose so? If I was a recruiter I wouldn't question what I thought was a 5k discrepancy. I was doing well though--- making 90k after 3 years of programming, and my bluff was 95k. I think that just the real salary alone would have been enough for him to raise suspicions.
  - eropple 12y ago
    Depends on the area, I guess. I don't think people would have blinked in SF or Boston at that. Or he was screwing with you to try to drag down your ask. Happens pretty frequently, because their incentives don't align with yours (it's the realtor problem all over again).
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - bigtunacan 12y ago
      While dealing with recruiters can be a hassle their goals align much more closely with ours if we are maintaining the fallacy that only the money counts. Recruiters are typically paid a percentage of your salary so they want you to receive the highest salary possible since that is the best payout for them as well. My experience with recruiters is they want to know how little it will take for you to accept the job, but this is because they need to know which jobs they should do the legwork on. If I'm looking for a job I call up several recruiters I trust and I tell them the specifics I'd what I'm looking for and the price I'm willing to accept. I then continue working my network and looking on my own, but now I have 4 times as many jobs and a better chance if finding the perfect fit.

JoblessWonder 12y ago

We regularly get requests for job title/tenure/salary verification forms from former employees. I'm not sure what our status on completing them is though, but there are at least some companies out there that go through the legwork to check up on something after a job offer.

fredkbloggs 12y ago
If you have a corporate lawyer and/or experienced HR director, you do the same thing everyone does: inform the questioner of the individual's dates of employment and nothing else.
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  And if you don't have intelligent HR/legal counsel, you're on the receiving end of a lawsuit by said previous employee.
  - pekk 12y ago
    Only if that employee has the time and money to waste on the lawsuit, and has any evidence in hand to make it go. How is that employee supposed to discover this? By fraudulently pretending to be a prospective employer?

ajju 12y ago

You certainly shouldn't share your salary, much less provide a W2, for most positions. However, not only is it not illegal to ask for a W2, for most sales positions it is the norm. The reason is that sales people make most of their money on commissions in most places, and checking how much they made in commissions in previous years is the simplest way to figure out how effective they have been in past positions. There is an altogether separate discussion about whether commission heavy compensation works better or not though.

j_lev 12y ago

In the original post Patrick already touched on the Japan case, but one thing I'd add is that one of the pieces of paperwork you must hand to your new employer is your final tax slip from your previous employer showing how much tax you have paid in the current year. From there it's trivial to calculate your previous salary. There are ways around it but it seems most people go with "my base was XX.... and that's one of the reasons I'm out there looking to change jobs."

ars 12y ago
> your final tax slip from your previous employer showing how much tax you have paid in the current year. Do you mean in Japan or the US? Because you certainly don't have to do that in the US. > From there it's trivial to calculate your previous salary. And even if you did do it in the US it would be impossible to calculate your salary from it because it depends on how many exemptions you claimed in your W4 (which you can change at any time - it doesn't have to be how many children you have, it's basically a number to fine tune how much tax you pay so you don't overpay and need a refund).
a_c_s 12y ago
"...one of the pieces of paperwork you must hand to your new employer is your final tax slip from your previous employer showing how much tax you have paid in the current year..." Are you referring to Japan? I've worked in two states in the USA and never been required to produce such documentation.
- heleph 12y ago
  I've always had to do that in the UK. Your previous employer gives you a form called a P45 when you leave that has information about your tax code and your earnings for the previous year.
  - zhte415 12y ago
    Correct. A difference for the UK is that salary bands are often (not always) disclosed in an advertisement or told to a head hunter in advance. Not always, but enough that not doing so raises eyebrows and concerns about corporate ethics for me (and my friends).

rgovind 12y ago

I don't know about US, but in India, its standard practive to ask for previous paychecks.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
biafra 12y ago
It is standard to ask in Germany too. But do they get an honest answer or expect an answer at all? I always say what I want instead.