15 ms·

Crazy. I'd definitely send a quick note to someone higher up if you can get a hold of him/her. I know, not worth the time, a hassle etc. But a typical CEO worth

Crazy. I'd definitely send a quick note to someone higher up if you can get a hold of him/her. I know, not worth the time, a hassle etc. But a typical CEO worth his salt will crush something silly like that in no-time, if you really want to hire good people this is the type of person you want to fire. I mean, hell, asking the question is one thing. I can live with that. But turning that into some kind of litmus test where declining to share private information completely 100% immediately disqualifies you, that's insane. Anyway, never experienced it. Question for you all, are there any negatives to bluffing? i.e. say you said your previous salary was $110k while it was really $90k, will HR say 'you're overqualified' or something to that extent if they were hoping to pay you say $90k and had a max of $100k in mind? As in, can you recover from that and say 'oh but $100k is fine, too', or would that also send a signal of weakness where they won't hire you because you seem desperate (taking a $10k cut from their perspective, when you actually get a $10k raise)? Ugh the mindgames! haha. Would love to hear your experiences on this issue.

marktangotango 12y ago
Yes, one might think so, but this was the CEO in question[1]. Edit, and so far as bluffing, could an employer legally ask for W2's to verify? [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/05/business/stinging-office-memo-boomerangs-chief-executive-criticized-after-upbraiding.html http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/05/business/stinging-office-m...
- eli 12y ago
  IANAL, but I don't see why that would be illegal. There are very few things that it's actually illegal for an employer to ask about. (Though it would obviously be a bad idea to ask a candidate about their status in a protected class, it's not technically illegal to ask.) That said, this is a bad idea because it would scare off plenty of people who aren't bluffing about their salary (like me). And there are already employers who will terminate you immediately if they discover you lied in your job application.
  - JoblessWonder 12y ago
    > There are very few things that it's actually illegal for an employer to ask about. I guess it depends on your definition of "very few things" but this list[1] of Unlawful vs. Lawful questions seems pretty long/wide ranging. And I know that the small business I worked for violated it on a regular basis. I actually had it sent out to each person who does interviewing (since the company didn't have a formal policy on training someone for interviews) so they knew what was/wasn't acceptable. [1]https://www.stat.washington.edu/jobs/questions/ https://www.stat.washington.edu/jobs/questions/
    - defen 12y ago
      Note: I'm not a lawyer so don't take this as legal advice. My understanding is that it is illegal to use any of those things to discriminate against someone for purposes of hiring. It's not technically illegal to ask the question, but if you do, and you don't hire the person, have fun in court trying to prove that you didn't hire them for some other, valid, reason. So don't ask them, because there's no upside in it for you.
- civilian 12y ago
  They can't legally ask for proof, no. Bluff away! (I'm not a lawyer and this does not constitute legal advice.) I did a small bluff to try it out, just 5k above what I was making. The recruiter was surprisingly skeptical! I know I've done an good job of bumping up my salary in a short amount of time, but it was kind of off-putting to have him question it.
  - jsprogrammer 12y ago
    But he was right to question it?
    - civilian 12y ago
      I suppose so? If I was a recruiter I wouldn't question what I thought was a 5k discrepancy. I was doing well though--- making 90k after 3 years of programming, and my bluff was 95k. I think that just the real salary alone would have been enough for him to raise suspicions.
      - eropple 12y ago
        Depends on the area, I guess. I don't think people would have blinked in SF or Boston at that. Or he was screwing with you to try to drag down your ask. Happens pretty frequently, because their incentives don't align with yours (it's the realtor problem all over again).
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        bigtunacan 12y ago
        While dealing with recruiters can be a hassle their goals align much more closely with ours if we are maintaining the fallacy that only the money counts. Recruiters are typically paid a percentage of your salary so they want you to receive the highest salary possible since that is the best payout for them as well. My experience with recruiters is they want to know how little it will take for you to accept the job, but this is because they need to know which jobs they should do the legwork on. If I'm looking for a job I call up several recruiters I trust and I tell them the specifics I'd what I'm looking for and the price I'm willing to accept. I then continue working my network and looking on my own, but now I have 4 times as many jobs and a better chance if finding the perfect fit.
- JoblessWonder 12y ago
  We regularly get requests for job title/tenure/salary verification forms from former employees. I'm not sure what our status on completing them is though, but there are at least some companies out there that go through the legwork to check up on something after a job offer.
  - fredkbloggs 12y ago
    If you have a corporate lawyer and/or experienced HR director, you do the same thing everyone does: inform the questioner of the individual's dates of employment and nothing else.
    - toomuchtodo 12y ago
      And if you don't have intelligent HR/legal counsel, you're on the receiving end of a lawsuit by said previous employee.
      - pekk 12y ago
        Only if that employee has the time and money to waste on the lawsuit, and has any evidence in hand to make it go. How is that employee supposed to discover this? By fraudulently pretending to be a prospective employer?
- ajju 12y ago
  You certainly shouldn't share your salary, much less provide a W2, for most positions. However, not only is it not illegal to ask for a W2, for most sales positions it is the norm. The reason is that sales people make most of their money on commissions in most places, and checking how much they made in commissions in previous years is the simplest way to figure out how effective they have been in past positions. There is an altogether separate discussion about whether commission heavy compensation works better or not though.
- j_lev 12y ago
  In the original post Patrick already touched on the Japan case, but one thing I'd add is that one of the pieces of paperwork you must hand to your new employer is your final tax slip from your previous employer showing how much tax you have paid in the current year. From there it's trivial to calculate your previous salary. There are ways around it but it seems most people go with "my base was XX.... and that's one of the reasons I'm out there looking to change jobs."
  - ars 12y ago
    > your final tax slip from your previous employer showing how much tax you have paid in the current year. Do you mean in Japan or the US? Because you certainly don't have to do that in the US. > From there it's trivial to calculate your previous salary. And even if you did do it in the US it would be impossible to calculate your salary from it because it depends on how many exemptions you claimed in your W4 (which you can change at any time - it doesn't have to be how many children you have, it's basically a number to fine tune how much tax you pay so you don't overpay and need a refund).
  - a_c_s 12y ago
    "...one of the pieces of paperwork you must hand to your new employer is your final tax slip from your previous employer showing how much tax you have paid in the current year..." Are you referring to Japan? I've worked in two states in the USA and never been required to produce such documentation.
    - heleph 12y ago
      I've always had to do that in the UK. Your previous employer gives you a form called a P45 when you leave that has information about your tax code and your earnings for the previous year.
      - zhte415 12y ago
        Correct. A difference for the UK is that salary bands are often (not always) disclosed in an advertisement or told to a head hunter in advance. Not always, but enough that not doing so raises eyebrows and concerns about corporate ethics for me (and my friends).
- rgovind 12y ago
  I don't know about US, but in India, its standard practive to ask for previous paychecks.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - biafra 12y ago
    It is standard to ask in Germany too. But do they get an honest answer or expect an answer at all? I always say what I want instead.
brentshields 12y ago
Regarding bluffing: I've seen it happen where the company has asked for a pay stub as part of the final paperwork to confirm that the stated current salary was legit. So yeah that could be a downside to bluffing if you want the job.
- grecy 12y ago
  Photoshop is a wonderful thing :)
  - kamaal 12y ago
    You can get fired if they figure out you have been fudging the figures and 'lying' to them. I'm not sure how they would know, but if they do, it can create problems for you.
    - anigbrowl 12y ago
      Error-level analysis of the Jpeg. As you say, if it comes out later that could have bad legal consequences - the term is 'detrimental reliance' and the dishonest person could conceivably face fraud charges. Even if not, it could easily become a a career-damaging topic of gossip.
      - derefr 12y ago
        Re: error analysis—it's a "picture of line-art" kind of document, isn't it? Not even a watermark. So: scan it at super high resolution, blow out the contrast, countour-vectorize it to SVG (effectively equivalent to recovering the original PDF), edit that, print the result, and then scan the print. (It just occurred to me that if there was "an app for that" in this case, no parent would ever be able to trust their child's report card again.)
        grecy 12y ago
        Don't even both with all of that.. Just make a reproduction from scratch. Make it look more or less like the original. As long as nobody sees the original next to the mock-up, who's ever going to notice that one or two digits changed?
AceJohnny2 12y ago
> if you really want to hire good people Well now there's the rub innit? I get the impression that a lot of companies out there either don't have that mentality (thinking cheap is enough) or don't know how to actually do good hiring. The good thing about this kind of reaction is that it helps you filter out that kind of company you wouldn't want to work for.
bkurtz13 12y ago
This has happened to me several times. It's not nearly as rare as you think.
kyllo 12y ago
Don't lie, respond with this: "I cannot disclose my current salary, but my desired salary is X." They just need a number. If they will not accept desired salary in place of current salary, you do not want to work there.
lscore720 12y ago
Recruiter here. Some may not like this answer, but: honesty is the best policy. Bluffing, or LYING, could backfire - especially if things escalate and they eventually learn about this. It's bullshit, especially for those who began their careers during a time of salary deflation. However, the right employer will NOT base your future salary solely on your current. It should simply be one data point in the process - your value as an employee should be based on a multitude of factors. This isn't pie in the sky; many of my clients do have a compensation system for employees and end up paying fairly.
- minot 12y ago
  Sorry but I disagree. Nobody has ever asked me how much I currently make or I made at my last position. It is just not relevant. You make an offer. I might or might not take it. Asking me to reveal my current salary first is silly. If you insist on this information before the conversation can continue, then conversation is over.
  - lscore720 12y ago
    I was addressing the bluff question. Further down in the comments, I address your point - note: I mostly agree with you.
    - minot 12y ago
      They shouldn't ask the question much less demand an answer threatening to close communication if the demand is not met. If they do so, they are clearly not somewhere you want to work.
      - minot 12y ago
        Related article: http://jacquesmattheij.com/do-not-disclose-your-salary-to-recruiters http://jacquesmattheij.com/do-not-disclose-your-salary-to-re... Discussion on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/34q8cl/do_not_disclose_your_salary_to_recruiters/ https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/34q8cl/do_not_...
devonkim 12y ago
I have had several interviews where after I had passed all the technical screens that the company was simply unable to offer me what I was asking for after weeks of trying. I managed to find a list of what local area start-ups were paying for different roles and was shocked to find myself in the top 10% when I had taken multiple pay cuts within defense and was getting mediocre compensation compared to every Bay Area and NYC located company I had talked to. I've talked to a number of folks with inside knowledge for a couple different regions and it's quite possible that they're simply not budgeted to pay for that role and they just can't politically negotiate that while meeting certain fiscal commitments. If I started a company right now and bootstrapped, I can't pay someone market rate at all and expect to be in business a year without taking outside funding, so that's just reality.
nodelessness 12y ago
>> But a typical CEO worth his salt will crush something silly like that in no-time, if you really want to hire good people this is the type of person you want to fire That is actually not true. This kind of employee low balling is condoned behavior. I applied for a position at Automattic and had Matt Mullenweg (CEO) pull this on me. Everything seemed to have gone perfectly well - everyone involved in the process seemed impressed with my abilities but when it came to this point and I declined I was told "I seem to be senstive about being Indian" out of nowhere. I don't know where that came from.
- sounds 12y ago
  Thank you for sharing. It takes courage to name and shame a company for bad behavior.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- notahacker 12y ago
  > I was told "I seem to be senstive about being Indian" out of nowhere In a climate where most companies are afraid to disclose quite reasonable reasons for not making a hire, it's remarkable that someone would think this kind of comment is appropriate.
- omegavesko 12y ago
  >> I was told "I seem to be senstive about being Indian" out of nowhere. Jesus. It's amazing to think someone who's worked so long in the tech industry can think like this. If anything, we're the ones who should know best how little race means when you have the skills to get the job done.
  - parennoob 12y ago
    True, and if this story is true, it also surprises me in a nasty way because a) I am Indian, and until now had largely thought that we were largely a privileged class within tech, if not outside it -- and consequently weren't affected by race issues within it. b) All of the articles about how oh-so-wonderfully Automattic does their remote work had always led me to believe they were a forward-thinking, "good" company. If they are bringing up race in an interview it completely destroys this perception.
rmc 12y ago
Question for you all, are there any negatives to bluffing? In many countries the employer does the employees tax, and they will be able to see how much you earned in that calendar year. Being hired under false pretenses is fraud and means you could be legally fired at will at any later date. People in the USA might be used to this (since this is very common), but in many places with actual employment law, this is a bad deal for the employee. Of course, that's only if you lie to them. If you just don't tell them the salary, then they only find out after you are hired and hopefully have a nice proper salary.

marktangotango 12y ago

Yes, one might think so, but this was the CEO in question[1]. Edit, and so far as bluffing, could an employer legally ask for W2's to verify? [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/05/business/stinging-office-memo-boomerangs-chief-executive-criticized-after-upbraiding.html http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/05/business/stinging-office-m...

eli 12y ago
IANAL, but I don't see why that would be illegal. There are very few things that it's actually illegal for an employer to ask about. (Though it would obviously be a bad idea to ask a candidate about their status in a protected class, it's not technically illegal to ask.) That said, this is a bad idea because it would scare off plenty of people who aren't bluffing about their salary (like me). And there are already employers who will terminate you immediately if they discover you lied in your job application.
- JoblessWonder 12y ago
  > There are very few things that it's actually illegal for an employer to ask about. I guess it depends on your definition of "very few things" but this list[1] of Unlawful vs. Lawful questions seems pretty long/wide ranging. And I know that the small business I worked for violated it on a regular basis. I actually had it sent out to each person who does interviewing (since the company didn't have a formal policy on training someone for interviews) so they knew what was/wasn't acceptable. [1]https://www.stat.washington.edu/jobs/questions/ https://www.stat.washington.edu/jobs/questions/
  - defen 12y ago
    Note: I'm not a lawyer so don't take this as legal advice. My understanding is that it is illegal to use any of those things to discriminate against someone for purposes of hiring. It's not technically illegal to ask the question, but if you do, and you don't hire the person, have fun in court trying to prove that you didn't hire them for some other, valid, reason. So don't ask them, because there's no upside in it for you.
civilian 12y ago
They can't legally ask for proof, no. Bluff away! (I'm not a lawyer and this does not constitute legal advice.) I did a small bluff to try it out, just 5k above what I was making. The recruiter was surprisingly skeptical! I know I've done an good job of bumping up my salary in a short amount of time, but it was kind of off-putting to have him question it.
- jsprogrammer 12y ago
  But he was right to question it?
  - civilian 12y ago
    I suppose so? If I was a recruiter I wouldn't question what I thought was a 5k discrepancy. I was doing well though--- making 90k after 3 years of programming, and my bluff was 95k. I think that just the real salary alone would have been enough for him to raise suspicions.
    - eropple 12y ago
      Depends on the area, I guess. I don't think people would have blinked in SF or Boston at that. Or he was screwing with you to try to drag down your ask. Happens pretty frequently, because their incentives don't align with yours (it's the realtor problem all over again).
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - bigtunacan 12y ago
        While dealing with recruiters can be a hassle their goals align much more closely with ours if we are maintaining the fallacy that only the money counts. Recruiters are typically paid a percentage of your salary so they want you to receive the highest salary possible since that is the best payout for them as well. My experience with recruiters is they want to know how little it will take for you to accept the job, but this is because they need to know which jobs they should do the legwork on. If I'm looking for a job I call up several recruiters I trust and I tell them the specifics I'd what I'm looking for and the price I'm willing to accept. I then continue working my network and looking on my own, but now I have 4 times as many jobs and a better chance if finding the perfect fit.
JoblessWonder 12y ago
We regularly get requests for job title/tenure/salary verification forms from former employees. I'm not sure what our status on completing them is though, but there are at least some companies out there that go through the legwork to check up on something after a job offer.
- fredkbloggs 12y ago
  If you have a corporate lawyer and/or experienced HR director, you do the same thing everyone does: inform the questioner of the individual's dates of employment and nothing else.
  - toomuchtodo 12y ago
    And if you don't have intelligent HR/legal counsel, you're on the receiving end of a lawsuit by said previous employee.
    - pekk 12y ago
      Only if that employee has the time and money to waste on the lawsuit, and has any evidence in hand to make it go. How is that employee supposed to discover this? By fraudulently pretending to be a prospective employer?
ajju 12y ago
You certainly shouldn't share your salary, much less provide a W2, for most positions. However, not only is it not illegal to ask for a W2, for most sales positions it is the norm. The reason is that sales people make most of their money on commissions in most places, and checking how much they made in commissions in previous years is the simplest way to figure out how effective they have been in past positions. There is an altogether separate discussion about whether commission heavy compensation works better or not though.
j_lev 12y ago
In the original post Patrick already touched on the Japan case, but one thing I'd add is that one of the pieces of paperwork you must hand to your new employer is your final tax slip from your previous employer showing how much tax you have paid in the current year. From there it's trivial to calculate your previous salary. There are ways around it but it seems most people go with "my base was XX.... and that's one of the reasons I'm out there looking to change jobs."
- ars 12y ago
  > your final tax slip from your previous employer showing how much tax you have paid in the current year. Do you mean in Japan or the US? Because you certainly don't have to do that in the US. > From there it's trivial to calculate your previous salary. And even if you did do it in the US it would be impossible to calculate your salary from it because it depends on how many exemptions you claimed in your W4 (which you can change at any time - it doesn't have to be how many children you have, it's basically a number to fine tune how much tax you pay so you don't overpay and need a refund).
- a_c_s 12y ago
  "...one of the pieces of paperwork you must hand to your new employer is your final tax slip from your previous employer showing how much tax you have paid in the current year..." Are you referring to Japan? I've worked in two states in the USA and never been required to produce such documentation.
  - heleph 12y ago
    I've always had to do that in the UK. Your previous employer gives you a form called a P45 when you leave that has information about your tax code and your earnings for the previous year.
    - zhte415 12y ago
      Correct. A difference for the UK is that salary bands are often (not always) disclosed in an advertisement or told to a head hunter in advance. Not always, but enough that not doing so raises eyebrows and concerns about corporate ethics for me (and my friends).
rgovind 12y ago
I don't know about US, but in India, its standard practive to ask for previous paychecks.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- biafra 12y ago
  It is standard to ask in Germany too. But do they get an honest answer or expect an answer at all? I always say what I want instead.

brentshields 12y ago

Regarding bluffing: I've seen it happen where the company has asked for a pay stub as part of the final paperwork to confirm that the stated current salary was legit. So yeah that could be a downside to bluffing if you want the job.

grecy 12y ago
Photoshop is a wonderful thing :)
- kamaal 12y ago
  You can get fired if they figure out you have been fudging the figures and 'lying' to them. I'm not sure how they would know, but if they do, it can create problems for you.
  - anigbrowl 12y ago
    Error-level analysis of the Jpeg. As you say, if it comes out later that could have bad legal consequences - the term is 'detrimental reliance' and the dishonest person could conceivably face fraud charges. Even if not, it could easily become a a career-damaging topic of gossip.
    - derefr 12y ago
      Re: error analysis—it's a "picture of line-art" kind of document, isn't it? Not even a watermark. So: scan it at super high resolution, blow out the contrast, countour-vectorize it to SVG (effectively equivalent to recovering the original PDF), edit that, print the result, and then scan the print. (It just occurred to me that if there was "an app for that" in this case, no parent would ever be able to trust their child's report card again.)
      - grecy 12y ago
        Don't even both with all of that.. Just make a reproduction from scratch. Make it look more or less like the original. As long as nobody sees the original next to the mock-up, who's ever going to notice that one or two digits changed?

AceJohnny2 12y ago

> if you really want to hire good people Well now there's the rub innit? I get the impression that a lot of companies out there either don't have that mentality (thinking cheap is enough) or don't know how to actually do good hiring. The good thing about this kind of reaction is that it helps you filter out that kind of company you wouldn't want to work for.

bkurtz13 12y ago

This has happened to me several times. It's not nearly as rare as you think.

kyllo 12y ago

Don't lie, respond with this: "I cannot disclose my current salary, but my desired salary is X." They just need a number. If they will not accept desired salary in place of current salary, you do not want to work there.

lscore720 12y ago

Recruiter here. Some may not like this answer, but: honesty is the best policy. Bluffing, or LYING, could backfire - especially if things escalate and they eventually learn about this. It's bullshit, especially for those who began their careers during a time of salary deflation. However, the right employer will NOT base your future salary solely on your current. It should simply be one data point in the process - your value as an employee should be based on a multitude of factors. This isn't pie in the sky; many of my clients do have a compensation system for employees and end up paying fairly.

minot 12y ago
Sorry but I disagree. Nobody has ever asked me how much I currently make or I made at my last position. It is just not relevant. You make an offer. I might or might not take it. Asking me to reveal my current salary first is silly. If you insist on this information before the conversation can continue, then conversation is over.
- lscore720 12y ago
  I was addressing the bluff question. Further down in the comments, I address your point - note: I mostly agree with you.
  - minot 12y ago
    They shouldn't ask the question much less demand an answer threatening to close communication if the demand is not met. If they do so, they are clearly not somewhere you want to work.
    - minot 12y ago
      Related article: http://jacquesmattheij.com/do-not-disclose-your-salary-to-recruiters http://jacquesmattheij.com/do-not-disclose-your-salary-to-re... Discussion on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/34q8cl/do_not_disclose_your_salary_to_recruiters/ https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/34q8cl/do_not_...

devonkim 12y ago

I have had several interviews where after I had passed all the technical screens that the company was simply unable to offer me what I was asking for after weeks of trying. I managed to find a list of what local area start-ups were paying for different roles and was shocked to find myself in the top 10% when I had taken multiple pay cuts within defense and was getting mediocre compensation compared to every Bay Area and NYC located company I had talked to. I've talked to a number of folks with inside knowledge for a couple different regions and it's quite possible that they're simply not budgeted to pay for that role and they just can't politically negotiate that while meeting certain fiscal commitments. If I started a company right now and bootstrapped, I can't pay someone market rate at all and expect to be in business a year without taking outside funding, so that's just reality.

nodelessness 12y ago

>> But a typical CEO worth his salt will crush something silly like that in no-time, if you really want to hire good people this is the type of person you want to fire That is actually not true. This kind of employee low balling is condoned behavior. I applied for a position at Automattic and had Matt Mullenweg (CEO) pull this on me. Everything seemed to have gone perfectly well - everyone involved in the process seemed impressed with my abilities but when it came to this point and I declined I was told "I seem to be senstive about being Indian" out of nowhere. I don't know where that came from.

sounds 12y ago
Thank you for sharing. It takes courage to name and shame a company for bad behavior.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
notahacker 12y ago
> I was told "I seem to be senstive about being Indian" out of nowhere In a climate where most companies are afraid to disclose quite reasonable reasons for not making a hire, it's remarkable that someone would think this kind of comment is appropriate.
omegavesko 12y ago
>> I was told "I seem to be senstive about being Indian" out of nowhere. Jesus. It's amazing to think someone who's worked so long in the tech industry can think like this. If anything, we're the ones who should know best how little race means when you have the skills to get the job done.
- parennoob 12y ago
  True, and if this story is true, it also surprises me in a nasty way because a) I am Indian, and until now had largely thought that we were largely a privileged class within tech, if not outside it -- and consequently weren't affected by race issues within it. b) All of the articles about how oh-so-wonderfully Automattic does their remote work had always led me to believe they were a forward-thinking, "good" company. If they are bringing up race in an interview it completely destroys this perception.

rmc 12y ago

Question for you all, are there any negatives to bluffing? In many countries the employer does the employees tax, and they will be able to see how much you earned in that calendar year. Being hired under false pretenses is fraud and means you could be legally fired at will at any later date. People in the USA might be used to this (since this is very common), but in many places with actual employment law, this is a bad deal for the employee. Of course, that's only if you lie to them. If you just don't tell them the salary, then they only find out after you are hired and hopefully have a nice proper salary.