5 ms·

I also live in Michigan, and can tell you it will be a money loser for one major reason: the full cost of the system you install will be added to your local pro

I also live in Michigan, and can tell you it will be a money loser for one major reason: the full cost of the system you install will be added to your local property tax valuation, as the state tax exemption on renewable energy equipment was nullified several years ago and never replaced. In my case I had $500 in taxes added to my annual bill, which outpaces the value of the energy I produce and creates an infinite payback period. Wait until this tax issue is resolved, then it will actually make good sense here. (It's sunnier than most people think!)

maxsilver 11y ago
> the full cost of the system you install will be added to your local property tax valuation Why is that? And are you absolutely certain it's true? I also live in Michigan, and I've never heard of this. I've replaced major appliances before without it impacting my property tax assessment -- including appliances that have cost more than the Tesla Battery pack and been inspected+verified by the city (such as a new 96% efficient furnace). I don't see why adding a Tesla Battery would change property tax assessment any, when adding a $6,000 furnace, $5,000 air conditioner, or a $2,000 refrigerator doesn't.
- andor436 11y ago
  Yes, I am unfortunately. I am in the midst of protesting an assessment now for a system I installed last year. See this pdf (sorry), page 17: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mpsc/marketbarrierssolarinmi_394662_7.pdf http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mpsc/marketbarrierssolarin... Solar systems are considered "real" property, i.e. property that is permanently attached to the house, and thus subject to taxation.
- walkon 11y ago
  A property would be assessed at a lower value if it didn't have any HVAC appliances installed in it. Since most properties start with such appliances, replacing them or upgrading them to similar, or even more efficient models, is likely considered a nominal effect on property value, i.e. an act of sustaining the properties existing value. A real battery backup system, assuming one didn't already exist on the property, would be considered a significant addition to property value.
  - _delirium 11y ago
    This is also standard with other parts of a house. For example if you upgrade your kitchen to high-end finishings (granite countertops, etc.) that it didn't have before, that increases the value of the house. Not necessarily by the amount of the purchase/installation price, though.
    - digerata 11y ago
      You don't need to obtain a permit to upgrade your countertops. I believe the only time that an upgrade could possibly increase the taxable value of your house is if the township/county knows about it (I.e., you got a permit to install it). I also live in Michigan, but haven't researched renewable energy sources vs taxable value. I'm surprised to hear the gp say they had an increase.
      - _delirium 11y ago
        It varies by state, but in Texas at least, major (>$5,000) improvements to a property are supposed to be reported. You could just not report it, but that's technically illegal. Also, one thing that makes reporting compliance relatively high is that there's a separate registration requirement (for different reasons) on the construction contractor's side: contractors undertaking home-improvement projects of >$5,000 are required to use a specific type of escrow account to hold the money temporarily, in order to resolve any disputes that might arise. There are contractors who will take your payment in cash and not register an escrow account, but reputable contractors won't risk that. And if you go that route, you aren't protected against what the escrow account is designed to protect against, that the contractor does shoddy (or no) work and just walks away with your cash. So people tend to do that only if they're having the work done by friends/family.
      - marincounty 11y ago
        It's really tricky. Replace the counter top--fine. Move the sink a few inches you're suppose to get a permit. A new electrical outlet--a permit. Solar system--permit. I can only think of a few things that don't require a permit--a fence maybe? Always claim you just replaced the switch. Just replaced the plumbing. Even then they can make your life miserable if they want. (I can go into most people homes and find multiple code violations--some homes just a few years old.) These towns are trying to make money. In my town, if you take a few pictures and sell them on eBay, or elsewhere the town wants a fee from you--guess what, you're a Professional Photographer. My point is these counties/towns are drunk with power, and preventing homeowners from upgrading their homes. They are looking for every dime they can extract from you. A simple electrical switch in you house will require an Inspector in you home at least two times. If you feel an inspector is picking on you; pull your video camera out and tape every move they make.(Keep the evidence if needed in a lawsuit.) A building inspector can walk into your home without a warrant at any time. That needs to change, along with enacting all these petty laws most people don't even know they are breaking. Stop passing their bonds, bonds, bonds, bonds, until they stop harassing us. (It's up to an inspector if they feel the improvements added to the value of your home in the counties I have worked in. Try arguing with some guy who just just looks up codes, and given way too much authority.)
analyst74 11y ago
Does that mean when you sell your house, you will recoup the cost of the system? If that's the case, the system itself wouldn't be a non-refundable investment, and calculating ROI on it would be as silly as calculating ROI on your house.
- andor436 11y ago
  Good point. It's unclear to me though. In some places (Hawaii, California, Germany) where there's huge acceptance of renewables and much shorter payback periods I believe a PV system would add value to a sale. Here in Michigan it's much less clear - plenty of my neighbors think it's ugly and an eyesore, or are somehow opposed to the whole concept. So I am pretty sure in the end it's a net zero here (no pun intended!)

maxsilver 11y ago

> the full cost of the system you install will be added to your local property tax valuation Why is that? And are you absolutely certain it's true? I also live in Michigan, and I've never heard of this. I've replaced major appliances before without it impacting my property tax assessment -- including appliances that have cost more than the Tesla Battery pack and been inspected+verified by the city (such as a new 96% efficient furnace). I don't see why adding a Tesla Battery would change property tax assessment any, when adding a $6,000 furnace, $5,000 air conditioner, or a $2,000 refrigerator doesn't.

andor436 11y ago
Yes, I am unfortunately. I am in the midst of protesting an assessment now for a system I installed last year. See this pdf (sorry), page 17: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mpsc/marketbarrierssolarinmi_394662_7.pdf http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mpsc/marketbarrierssolarin... Solar systems are considered "real" property, i.e. property that is permanently attached to the house, and thus subject to taxation.
walkon 11y ago
A property would be assessed at a lower value if it didn't have any HVAC appliances installed in it. Since most properties start with such appliances, replacing them or upgrading them to similar, or even more efficient models, is likely considered a nominal effect on property value, i.e. an act of sustaining the properties existing value. A real battery backup system, assuming one didn't already exist on the property, would be considered a significant addition to property value.
- _delirium 11y ago
  This is also standard with other parts of a house. For example if you upgrade your kitchen to high-end finishings (granite countertops, etc.) that it didn't have before, that increases the value of the house. Not necessarily by the amount of the purchase/installation price, though.
  - digerata 11y ago
    You don't need to obtain a permit to upgrade your countertops. I believe the only time that an upgrade could possibly increase the taxable value of your house is if the township/county knows about it (I.e., you got a permit to install it). I also live in Michigan, but haven't researched renewable energy sources vs taxable value. I'm surprised to hear the gp say they had an increase.
    - _delirium 11y ago
      It varies by state, but in Texas at least, major (>$5,000) improvements to a property are supposed to be reported. You could just not report it, but that's technically illegal. Also, one thing that makes reporting compliance relatively high is that there's a separate registration requirement (for different reasons) on the construction contractor's side: contractors undertaking home-improvement projects of >$5,000 are required to use a specific type of escrow account to hold the money temporarily, in order to resolve any disputes that might arise. There are contractors who will take your payment in cash and not register an escrow account, but reputable contractors won't risk that. And if you go that route, you aren't protected against what the escrow account is designed to protect against, that the contractor does shoddy (or no) work and just walks away with your cash. So people tend to do that only if they're having the work done by friends/family.
    - marincounty 11y ago
      It's really tricky. Replace the counter top--fine. Move the sink a few inches you're suppose to get a permit. A new electrical outlet--a permit. Solar system--permit. I can only think of a few things that don't require a permit--a fence maybe? Always claim you just replaced the switch. Just replaced the plumbing. Even then they can make your life miserable if they want. (I can go into most people homes and find multiple code violations--some homes just a few years old.) These towns are trying to make money. In my town, if you take a few pictures and sell them on eBay, or elsewhere the town wants a fee from you--guess what, you're a Professional Photographer. My point is these counties/towns are drunk with power, and preventing homeowners from upgrading their homes. They are looking for every dime they can extract from you. A simple electrical switch in you house will require an Inspector in you home at least two times. If you feel an inspector is picking on you; pull your video camera out and tape every move they make.(Keep the evidence if needed in a lawsuit.) A building inspector can walk into your home without a warrant at any time. That needs to change, along with enacting all these petty laws most people don't even know they are breaking. Stop passing their bonds, bonds, bonds, bonds, until they stop harassing us. (It's up to an inspector if they feel the improvements added to the value of your home in the counties I have worked in. Try arguing with some guy who just just looks up codes, and given way too much authority.)

analyst74 11y ago

Does that mean when you sell your house, you will recoup the cost of the system? If that's the case, the system itself wouldn't be a non-refundable investment, and calculating ROI on it would be as silly as calculating ROI on your house.

andor436 11y ago
Good point. It's unclear to me though. In some places (Hawaii, California, Germany) where there's huge acceptance of renewables and much shorter payback periods I believe a PV system would add value to a sale. Here in Michigan it's much less clear - plenty of my neighbors think it's ugly and an eyesore, or are somehow opposed to the whole concept. So I am pretty sure in the end it's a net zero here (no pun intended!)