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Please excuse my ignorance but why is working for Goldman Sachs shady?

by rifung 12y ago

rmxt 12y ago
I am not sure if this is what the GP is basing that opinion on, but there is quite a long list of controversies associated with GS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs#Controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs#Controversies Among the HN crowd I am sure you will find people on both sides of this issue: some people will think that GS is not working on 'good' problems that better the world, therefore, it is 'shady' to work there; and others will argue that GS is abstractly bettering the world through efficient resource/money allocation, especially for developing countries.
- tormeh 12y ago
  >others will argue that GS is abstractly bettering the world through efficient resource/money allocation, especially for developing countries This would be true if GS didn't scam people, which they do. I accept the investment allocation argument, but I'm not convinced that it's valid for GS specifically. EDIT: Holy shit, that controversies section just goes on and on. I just checked, and it's 7000 words long. This company's insane.
  - cheepin 12y ago
    "that controversies section just goes on and on. I just checked, and it's 7000 words long. This company's insane." That's what I was thinking. That's an awful lot of smoke if there's no fire.
- PhantomGremlin 12y ago
  some people will think that GS is not working on 'good' problems that better the world Nonsense. Lloyd Blankfein, the CEO of Goldman, is on record that the company is just "doing God’s work". http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/11/09/goldman-chief-says-he-is-just-doing-gods-work/ http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/11/09/goldman-chief-says-he... /sarcasm
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
LLWM 12y ago
Because a lot of people are desperate to rationalize not being employed there.
beeworker 12y ago
Anything that even smells like the financial and banking industry is considered shady by a lot of people, not just programmers, after our Great Recession. A necessary evil at best, and for programmers one that pays very well. In any case, it was a good zing.
jbob2000 12y ago
They have way too much power as a private organization. I think that kind of power scares people. One bad commit and the world's economy crashes.
chrisbennet 12y ago
Google "goldman starvation" for one such example.
cwyers 12y ago
I first heard about the programmer mentioned in this article in Michael Lewis' "Flash Boys," which goes into great detail about how places like Goldman let high-frequency trading firms into their "dark pool" to make money off arbitrage by being able to make orders faster than anyone else, and then steering their customers into their dark pools rather than executing the trades in the way most beneficial to their customers. I find that sort of thing to be rather unethical at best -- if I hire a broker, I expect them to buy and sell stocks in the way that best benefits me, not whichever one benefits some high-frequency trading firm the most.
- sz4kerto 12y ago
  > if I hire a broker, I expect them to buy and sell stocks in the way that best benefits me, not whichever one benefits some high-frequency trading firm the most. This is not just the ethical way, this is the only legal approach. As a broker, you can't frontrun, etc.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    I don't feel like I remember _Flash Boys_ making a case that GS was frontrunning its clients. In fact, the book I read was trying to make a case that the giant banks (and their clients) were victims of small shady HFT firms.
- tptacek 12y ago
  Nobody I've ever talked to that has worked in trading thinks _Flash Boys_ is a good book. There's a whole other book written as a rebuttal to it that is chock full of the technical details that Lewis' book lacks: http://www.amazon.com/Flash-Boys-Insiders-Perspective-High-Frequency-ebook/dp/B00P0QI2M2 http://www.amazon.com/Flash-Boys-Insiders-Perspective-High-F... --- and, if you haven't read it (do! it's great!), know that the objections aren't about the morality tale Lewis is trying to tell, but rather that none of the details of his case against HFT actually make any sense. Another good book that is recommended constantly in these threads is _Dark Pools_. Dark Pools is also a great sort of rags-to-riches story about the emergence of the most important electronic markets from tiny startups; it's a good read.

Please excuse my ignorance but why is working for Goldman Sachs shady?

by rifung 12y ago

Please excuse my ignorance but why is working for Goldman Sachs shady?

rmxt 12y ago

I am not sure if this is what the GP is basing that opinion on, but there is quite a long list of controversies associated with GS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs#Controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs#Controversies Among the HN crowd I am sure you will find people on both sides of this issue: some people will think that GS is not working on 'good' problems that better the world, therefore, it is 'shady' to work there; and others will argue that GS is abstractly bettering the world through efficient resource/money allocation, especially for developing countries.

tormeh 12y ago
>others will argue that GS is abstractly bettering the world through efficient resource/money allocation, especially for developing countries This would be true if GS didn't scam people, which they do. I accept the investment allocation argument, but I'm not convinced that it's valid for GS specifically. EDIT: Holy shit, that controversies section just goes on and on. I just checked, and it's 7000 words long. This company's insane.
- cheepin 12y ago
  "that controversies section just goes on and on. I just checked, and it's 7000 words long. This company's insane." That's what I was thinking. That's an awful lot of smoke if there's no fire.
PhantomGremlin 12y ago
some people will think that GS is not working on 'good' problems that better the world Nonsense. Lloyd Blankfein, the CEO of Goldman, is on record that the company is just "doing God’s work". http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/11/09/goldman-chief-says-he-is-just-doing-gods-work/ http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/11/09/goldman-chief-says-he... /sarcasm

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

LLWM 12y ago

Because a lot of people are desperate to rationalize not being employed there.

beeworker 12y ago

Anything that even smells like the financial and banking industry is considered shady by a lot of people, not just programmers, after our Great Recession. A necessary evil at best, and for programmers one that pays very well. In any case, it was a good zing.

jbob2000 12y ago

They have way too much power as a private organization. I think that kind of power scares people. One bad commit and the world's economy crashes.

chrisbennet 12y ago

Google "goldman starvation" for one such example.

cwyers 12y ago

I first heard about the programmer mentioned in this article in Michael Lewis' "Flash Boys," which goes into great detail about how places like Goldman let high-frequency trading firms into their "dark pool" to make money off arbitrage by being able to make orders faster than anyone else, and then steering their customers into their dark pools rather than executing the trades in the way most beneficial to their customers. I find that sort of thing to be rather unethical at best -- if I hire a broker, I expect them to buy and sell stocks in the way that best benefits me, not whichever one benefits some high-frequency trading firm the most.

sz4kerto 12y ago
> if I hire a broker, I expect them to buy and sell stocks in the way that best benefits me, not whichever one benefits some high-frequency trading firm the most. This is not just the ethical way, this is the only legal approach. As a broker, you can't frontrun, etc.
- tptacek 12y ago
  I don't feel like I remember _Flash Boys_ making a case that GS was frontrunning its clients. In fact, the book I read was trying to make a case that the giant banks (and their clients) were victims of small shady HFT firms.
tptacek 12y ago
Nobody I've ever talked to that has worked in trading thinks _Flash Boys_ is a good book. There's a whole other book written as a rebuttal to it that is chock full of the technical details that Lewis' book lacks: http://www.amazon.com/Flash-Boys-Insiders-Perspective-High-Frequency-ebook/dp/B00P0QI2M2 http://www.amazon.com/Flash-Boys-Insiders-Perspective-High-F... --- and, if you haven't read it (do! it's great!), know that the objections aren't about the morality tale Lewis is trying to tell, but rather that none of the details of his case against HFT actually make any sense. Another good book that is recommended constantly in these threads is _Dark Pools_. Dark Pools is also a great sort of rags-to-riches story about the emergence of the most important electronic markets from tiny startups; it's a good read.