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There are so many of us that are sick and tired of reading this kind of stuff and knowing that no one will be held accountable. The general population is so ap

There are so many of us that are sick and tired of reading this kind of stuff and knowing that no one will be held accountable. The general population is so apathetic, it's hard to gain any traction. What can we do? Seriously? Can we start a kickstarter to raise funds, to hire lawyers or whatever is needed to make sure people are sent to jail over this? What can we do that will make an impact, without relying on the ignorant mainstream public? There's got to be something

cryoshon 12y ago
You're not going to like this answer. We can strike. If we organize enough people in the tech sector or the general public and withhold work until conditions improve, this country will be brought to its knees nearly instantly and we can get some real change to happen. You think the people who run the country are going to tolerate reduced profits over some political mishaps committed by the last president? It'll be much cheaper to bribe their politicians to do some legal mumbo jumbo to put the proper people into hot water than to sustain a huge revenue loss.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- pdkl95 12y ago
  While I support this idea and have believed for a long time now that a critical mass of the sysadmins, engineers, et al. that keep the world turning have more power than most politicians if they could just ignore the usual arguments for a while and organize. Look at the panic over Occupy; if the money stops flowing because nobody is there to keep the infrastructure working, I expect mass hysteria. This kind of plan is dangerous - in this political climate, there is a good chance such a strike would be labeled a terror plot, and the people with guns will be sent in to do what they usually do. Another consideration: similar to how "total information awareness" wasn't really canceled - it just got a new name and distributed into several departments - COINTELPRO wasn't really canceled either. Remember that any leader or central organizer is a target. Decentralize everything.
  - cryoshon 12y ago
    Shrug. Direct confrontation between the fascists and the public is inevitable if any real change is going to happen. If the government goes in on people who are striking for better conditions, the world will be on their side.
skwirl 12y ago
You vote. If you don't like the way other people are voting, change their minds. If you can't change their minds then you lost fairly. Throwing people in jail over things that were repeatedly ruled legal and done in good faith is not something that we do in the United States, and is not a can of worms you want to open. The unfortunate truth is that the great majority of Americans are NOT ignorant. They are aware that we were torturing people. Most of them either support what happened or just don't really care that much about it. If that bothers you, try to change it.
- DyslexicAtheist 12y ago
  but what do you do if you disagree with the US as a foreigner in a moderate country? unfortunately the only option you have left is to decide not to visit the US ever (regardless if you have friends living there). because the risk you face by traveling to the US and getting questioned for why you posted which tweets is simply not worth it. anyone who disagrees as a foreigner with US policy has been made automatically a suspect by US legislation. Your mentality is black and white and your system is Orwellian. Sorry.
  - skwirl 12y ago
    You and I face that risk whenever we travel abroad no matter what country we are from or travelling to. I have never imagined that I have the same protection as citizens whenever I have traveled abroad. We are in large part protected by diplomatic relationships between our home country and the country we are travelling to, as well as our host country's desire to maintain a positive reputation for tourism and business. If you're really afraid, don't come here. But your absence won't even be noticed because your fears are not truly shared by many, or they would have stopped coming a decade ago.
- hackuser 12y ago
  > Throwing people in jail over things that were repeatedly ruled legal and done in good faith Were these actions ever were ruled upon by a court. There was a memo by an executive branch lawyer, but there is a reason we have separation of powers. It is well known that kidnapping and torture are illegal and morally wrong. Speaking generally about many people, I do not think they acted in good faith; they were doing what they thought they could get away with.
DyslexicAtheist 12y ago
unfortunately peaceful demonstration will not change a thing. Remember Occupy WS? How have their efforts transformed anything in the banking sector? The only way US citizens can bring change is by boycotting their system (e.g. stop paying your taxes all at once). Guess the challenge is in how to motivate the masses. As a collective we are cowards. And people simply don't care as long as they don't directly feel affected. The only way any of this will improve is if it first gets worse for the average Joe. Unfortunately by then it will be too late and the situation will have so badly deteriorated that they only solution is to burn everything to the ground before starting fresh. (if this sounds radical just look at other political systems throughout history which required transformation. It is never peaceful.) What is even worse is that the world has always looked to the US as some kind of role-model. And we now continue to have rotten people in rotten governments or previously good people in good governments getting away with abusing their powers. The only way to solve this imo is to support systems and countries undermining the petro-dollar. Saying this makes you a terrorist though. Saddam Hussein set out in this directions and failed. The Russians and Iran are trying the same. Crazy world we live in where we have to look for the bad guys in hope for getting the good guys back on track.
belorn 12y ago
Maybe this situation better explain the horrors of ww2, rather than the more commonly cited stanford prison experiment. When neither mass media or the legal system are willing to hold people accountable, its hard to create change.

cryoshon 12y ago

You're not going to like this answer. We can strike. If we organize enough people in the tech sector or the general public and withhold work until conditions improve, this country will be brought to its knees nearly instantly and we can get some real change to happen. You think the people who run the country are going to tolerate reduced profits over some political mishaps committed by the last president? It'll be much cheaper to bribe their politicians to do some legal mumbo jumbo to put the proper people into hot water than to sustain a huge revenue loss.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
pdkl95 12y ago
While I support this idea and have believed for a long time now that a critical mass of the sysadmins, engineers, et al. that keep the world turning have more power than most politicians if they could just ignore the usual arguments for a while and organize. Look at the panic over Occupy; if the money stops flowing because nobody is there to keep the infrastructure working, I expect mass hysteria. This kind of plan is dangerous - in this political climate, there is a good chance such a strike would be labeled a terror plot, and the people with guns will be sent in to do what they usually do. Another consideration: similar to how "total information awareness" wasn't really canceled - it just got a new name and distributed into several departments - COINTELPRO wasn't really canceled either. Remember that any leader or central organizer is a target. Decentralize everything.
- cryoshon 12y ago
  Shrug. Direct confrontation between the fascists and the public is inevitable if any real change is going to happen. If the government goes in on people who are striking for better conditions, the world will be on their side.

skwirl 12y ago

You vote. If you don't like the way other people are voting, change their minds. If you can't change their minds then you lost fairly. Throwing people in jail over things that were repeatedly ruled legal and done in good faith is not something that we do in the United States, and is not a can of worms you want to open. The unfortunate truth is that the great majority of Americans are NOT ignorant. They are aware that we were torturing people. Most of them either support what happened or just don't really care that much about it. If that bothers you, try to change it.

DyslexicAtheist 12y ago
but what do you do if you disagree with the US as a foreigner in a moderate country? unfortunately the only option you have left is to decide not to visit the US ever (regardless if you have friends living there). because the risk you face by traveling to the US and getting questioned for why you posted which tweets is simply not worth it. anyone who disagrees as a foreigner with US policy has been made automatically a suspect by US legislation. Your mentality is black and white and your system is Orwellian. Sorry.
- skwirl 12y ago
  You and I face that risk whenever we travel abroad no matter what country we are from or travelling to. I have never imagined that I have the same protection as citizens whenever I have traveled abroad. We are in large part protected by diplomatic relationships between our home country and the country we are travelling to, as well as our host country's desire to maintain a positive reputation for tourism and business. If you're really afraid, don't come here. But your absence won't even be noticed because your fears are not truly shared by many, or they would have stopped coming a decade ago.
hackuser 12y ago
> Throwing people in jail over things that were repeatedly ruled legal and done in good faith Were these actions ever were ruled upon by a court. There was a memo by an executive branch lawyer, but there is a reason we have separation of powers. It is well known that kidnapping and torture are illegal and morally wrong. Speaking generally about many people, I do not think they acted in good faith; they were doing what they thought they could get away with.

DyslexicAtheist 12y ago

unfortunately peaceful demonstration will not change a thing. Remember Occupy WS? How have their efforts transformed anything in the banking sector? The only way US citizens can bring change is by boycotting their system (e.g. stop paying your taxes all at once). Guess the challenge is in how to motivate the masses. As a collective we are cowards. And people simply don't care as long as they don't directly feel affected. The only way any of this will improve is if it first gets worse for the average Joe. Unfortunately by then it will be too late and the situation will have so badly deteriorated that they only solution is to burn everything to the ground before starting fresh. (if this sounds radical just look at other political systems throughout history which required transformation. It is never peaceful.) What is even worse is that the world has always looked to the US as some kind of role-model. And we now continue to have rotten people in rotten governments or previously good people in good governments getting away with abusing their powers. The only way to solve this imo is to support systems and countries undermining the petro-dollar. Saying this makes you a terrorist though. Saddam Hussein set out in this directions and failed. The Russians and Iran are trying the same. Crazy world we live in where we have to look for the bad guys in hope for getting the good guys back on track.

belorn 12y ago

Maybe this situation better explain the horrors of ww2, rather than the more commonly cited stanford prison experiment. When neither mass media or the legal system are willing to hold people accountable, its hard to create change.