9 ms·

I don't see how it's immediately beneficial for just about everyone. I currently have a flat rate for kWh and no solar panel... and moving soon. It's not wort

by watty 11y ago

I don't see how it's immediately beneficial for just about everyone. I currently have a flat rate for kWh and no solar panel... and moving soon. It's not worth the $. In 6 months I'll be renting for a year, still not beneficial. Perhaps in a couple years I can purchase solar, a battery, and an energy system that can automate some demand shedding but we're talking about 1%ers here. In fact, I'd say it's only immediately beneficial to a minority.

nkohari 11y ago
A better way of looking at it is that it's immediately beneficial to anyone who owns real estate.
- butwhy 11y ago
  Or anyone who lives on Earth with a vested interest in limiting carbon emissions.
  - Angostura 11y ago
    I think I'd want to see an environment impact assessment of manufacturing the batteries.
    - jarvist 11y ago
      OK; here's a well cited study from 2010 on electric cars: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es903729a http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es903729a "The share of the total environmental impact of E-mobility caused by the battery (measured in Ecoindicator 99 points) is 15%. The impact caused by the extraction of lithium for the components of the Li-ion battery is less than 2.3% (Ecoindicator 99 points). The major contributor to the environmental burden caused by the battery is the supply of copper and aluminum for the production of the anode and the cathode, plus the required cables or the battery management system." The copper and aluminium foils that make up the electrodes of the battery dominate. Both these metals are highly recyclable. Not much Li-ion recycling goes on currently as there's lots of different battery shapes + sizes, and there haven't been the economies of scale. I would imagine that whatever technology Tesla have standardised on, there will be (possibly closed loop) recycling plants.
      - webXL 11y ago
        15% and 2.3% didn't really mean much to me without seeing the total composition (chart on page 3). Turns out operation is dominant source of electric vehicles' environmental impact. I guess the operational impact is primarily from electricity generation, which is always going to be cleaner than refining crude oil unless every power plant switches to coal. Compared to internal combustion engine vehicles, the battery impact is much less than the total improvement in operational impact in all 4 impact assessments. But if the ease of installing these batteries makes home solar panels more attractive, that may offset their impact outside of EV use.
      - Angostura 11y ago
        Thank you for that, much appreciated.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
psychometry 11y ago
As someone who rents an apartment with no garage and has a traditional gas-powered car, I can echo your sentiment and claim that Tesla has had zero impact on my life and that this announcement doesn't change that. I sincerely hope that Tesla's many innovative business efforts improve society in some major way, but right now they're still just a high-end automative company that's exploring the renewable energy space. I'm not trying to discount anything they've done, because it's forward-thinking and technologically impressive, but it's not like Elon Musk has saved the world just yet.
- agmcleod 11y ago
  Agreed. I'd love to have a living situation where a tesla or electric vehicle was realistic for me. They're just better pieces of engineering. But sadly due to renting an apartment, parking underground, and so forth, it's not a life style I can change to.
  - checker 11y ago
    Not trying to sound snarky, but how does parking underground preclude you from owning an electric vehicle? Is there a physical reason for this? There are apartments that have electric vehicle chargers. You might even be able to convince your complex to install a few as an amenity that will make it more attractive to new tenants.
- criley2 11y ago
  >" but it's not like Elon Musk has saved the world just yet." "I choose to rent, I choose to have no property rights over the building I live in, I choose to be legally incapable of installing solar panels and batteries on a structure I don't own: Elon Musk has failed me" Come on now. You made your choice to not be a part of the greater community and culture of property owners. These options, they're available to owners, not renters. Did you realize Google Fiber was the same way? As a renter, you have 0 ability to install Google Fiber without your owners permission. (https://support.google.com/fiber/answer/2847916?hl=en https://support.google.com/fiber/answer/2847916?hl=en) This is the same. If you care, you'll petition your landlord to invest in these technologies. Or you'll buy property and change your status to enable yourself materially and legally to be able to do it yourself. But you can't blame Elon because of your choice to make yourself willingly devoid of the legal authority to make these decisions for yourself. Elon can never overcome your landlords property rights. Not now, not in 100 years. That's not his failure, it's your choice in a free society. Next time, rent in a location that has these options already installed, or make it known that these are your priorities. I personally have sat down with my landlord and discussed Fiber and the costs and the benefits, and I'm confident he will make that investment on behalf his property. It's not hard to take the initiative and make a case.
je_bailey 11y ago
You missed an additional subset of users. I live in an old neighborhood that experiences power outages and fluctuations once or twice a year. This is fantastic and something I will be installing as soon as I can. So older neighborhoods, rural areas with inconsistent power supply. All of these potentially benefit from this.
- sfrigon 11y ago
  Living in a region with cold weather, this is the kind of situation I would like to solve too. The problem is that a generator still has benefits over a battery, it can be refilled (i.e. when you lose electricity for a longer period).
  - ams6110 11y ago
    And is a fraction of the cost, best case, or about the same if you want one capable of powering your entire household load indefinitely. And if you have natural gas service, you don't need to refuel either.
  - gus_massa 11y ago
    I agree, but I guess that the generator have a no zero starting time. (Do you have o turn it on manually?) So the battery keeps the electricity for the meanwhile. Also, the generators are noisier. Perhaps you can turn them off during the night and use only the battery while you are sleeping and the electricity consumption is smaller.
  - uberdog 11y ago
    Having lived through Hurricane Sandy in NYC: don't assume you can get gas to fill your generator in a disaster situation. Solar panels paired with a battery aren't dependent on a supply chain (that itself needs energy).
    - sfrigon 11y ago
      Yes, getting energy from a sustainable source of energy is the best way, but assuming you only use it for power outages once or twice a year, I am not sure it is worth the investment. Especially if you expect it to last a day/few days (if you are self sufficient for a few days you'd better do it all year long).

by watty 11y ago

nkohari 11y ago

A better way of looking at it is that it's immediately beneficial to anyone who owns real estate.

butwhy 11y ago
Or anyone who lives on Earth with a vested interest in limiting carbon emissions.
- Angostura 11y ago
  I think I'd want to see an environment impact assessment of manufacturing the batteries.
  - jarvist 11y ago
    OK; here's a well cited study from 2010 on electric cars: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es903729a http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es903729a "The share of the total environmental impact of E-mobility caused by the battery (measured in Ecoindicator 99 points) is 15%. The impact caused by the extraction of lithium for the components of the Li-ion battery is less than 2.3% (Ecoindicator 99 points). The major contributor to the environmental burden caused by the battery is the supply of copper and aluminum for the production of the anode and the cathode, plus the required cables or the battery management system." The copper and aluminium foils that make up the electrodes of the battery dominate. Both these metals are highly recyclable. Not much Li-ion recycling goes on currently as there's lots of different battery shapes + sizes, and there haven't been the economies of scale. I would imagine that whatever technology Tesla have standardised on, there will be (possibly closed loop) recycling plants.
    - webXL 11y ago
      15% and 2.3% didn't really mean much to me without seeing the total composition (chart on page 3). Turns out operation is dominant source of electric vehicles' environmental impact. I guess the operational impact is primarily from electricity generation, which is always going to be cleaner than refining crude oil unless every power plant switches to coal. Compared to internal combustion engine vehicles, the battery impact is much less than the total improvement in operational impact in all 4 impact assessments. But if the ease of installing these batteries makes home solar panels more attractive, that may offset their impact outside of EV use.
    - Angostura 11y ago
      Thank you for that, much appreciated.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

psychometry 11y ago

As someone who rents an apartment with no garage and has a traditional gas-powered car, I can echo your sentiment and claim that Tesla has had zero impact on my life and that this announcement doesn't change that. I sincerely hope that Tesla's many innovative business efforts improve society in some major way, but right now they're still just a high-end automative company that's exploring the renewable energy space. I'm not trying to discount anything they've done, because it's forward-thinking and technologically impressive, but it's not like Elon Musk has saved the world just yet.

agmcleod 11y ago
Agreed. I'd love to have a living situation where a tesla or electric vehicle was realistic for me. They're just better pieces of engineering. But sadly due to renting an apartment, parking underground, and so forth, it's not a life style I can change to.
- checker 11y ago
  Not trying to sound snarky, but how does parking underground preclude you from owning an electric vehicle? Is there a physical reason for this? There are apartments that have electric vehicle chargers. You might even be able to convince your complex to install a few as an amenity that will make it more attractive to new tenants.
criley2 11y ago
>" but it's not like Elon Musk has saved the world just yet." "I choose to rent, I choose to have no property rights over the building I live in, I choose to be legally incapable of installing solar panels and batteries on a structure I don't own: Elon Musk has failed me" Come on now. You made your choice to not be a part of the greater community and culture of property owners. These options, they're available to owners, not renters. Did you realize Google Fiber was the same way? As a renter, you have 0 ability to install Google Fiber without your owners permission. (https://support.google.com/fiber/answer/2847916?hl=en https://support.google.com/fiber/answer/2847916?hl=en) This is the same. If you care, you'll petition your landlord to invest in these technologies. Or you'll buy property and change your status to enable yourself materially and legally to be able to do it yourself. But you can't blame Elon because of your choice to make yourself willingly devoid of the legal authority to make these decisions for yourself. Elon can never overcome your landlords property rights. Not now, not in 100 years. That's not his failure, it's your choice in a free society. Next time, rent in a location that has these options already installed, or make it known that these are your priorities. I personally have sat down with my landlord and discussed Fiber and the costs and the benefits, and I'm confident he will make that investment on behalf his property. It's not hard to take the initiative and make a case.

je_bailey 11y ago

You missed an additional subset of users. I live in an old neighborhood that experiences power outages and fluctuations once or twice a year. This is fantastic and something I will be installing as soon as I can. So older neighborhoods, rural areas with inconsistent power supply. All of these potentially benefit from this.

sfrigon 11y ago
Living in a region with cold weather, this is the kind of situation I would like to solve too. The problem is that a generator still has benefits over a battery, it can be refilled (i.e. when you lose electricity for a longer period).
- ams6110 11y ago
  And is a fraction of the cost, best case, or about the same if you want one capable of powering your entire household load indefinitely. And if you have natural gas service, you don't need to refuel either.
- gus_massa 11y ago
  I agree, but I guess that the generator have a no zero starting time. (Do you have o turn it on manually?) So the battery keeps the electricity for the meanwhile. Also, the generators are noisier. Perhaps you can turn them off during the night and use only the battery while you are sleeping and the electricity consumption is smaller.
- uberdog 11y ago
  Having lived through Hurricane Sandy in NYC: don't assume you can get gas to fill your generator in a disaster situation. Solar panels paired with a battery aren't dependent on a supply chain (that itself needs energy).
  - sfrigon 11y ago
    Yes, getting energy from a sustainable source of energy is the best way, but assuming you only use it for power outages once or twice a year, I am not sure it is worth the investment. Especially if you expect it to last a day/few days (if you are self sufficient for a few days you'd better do it all year long).