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Completely agree with this. I don't think anyone truly wants this to happen. The point is it may have to happen, if people want to see serious change. If crimin

Completely agree with this. I don't think anyone truly wants this to happen. The point is it may have to happen, if people want to see serious change. If criminals take over the government and its power, how else can you take down down? But some people don't even like protests because they "make them be late to work" or whatever, when they block traffic. Well guess what, the point of riots, protests and even strikes is to inconvenience to the point where change has to be made and demands listened to. Otherwise if you just go and protest on a mountain, like the Tibetans do, nothing will ever change since you won't be inconveniencing anyone in the slightest.

gambiting 11y ago
Yeah, but for most people(me included), if the rioters make me late for work I am angry at them,not at the government. Therefore I am more likely to support any effort to get rid of them as a nuisance.
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  "if the rioters make me late for work I am angry at them,not at the government" Then, you were never on their side, anyway, and it makes no difference who you're angry at. The protesters are making it very clear who they're angry at, and making it clear they're willing to escalate in the interest of altering the status quo, even if it costs them more than it costs those in power (and it always does). That's what desperation looks like. I'm personally uncomfortable with the status quo, if the status quo has large segments of people who feel so unheard that they have to riot to get media, to get the attention of those in power, to have any sort of voice at all. Whether I agree with the tactics, or not, I recognize how much this means to so many of my fellow Americans, and I recognize that means there's something really wrong, even if I don't personally feel it in my daily life. In short: I don't like people getting hurt. I don't like people going to jail. I don't like random acts of destruction. But, even moreso, I don't like my country stepping on the throats of ~13% of the population to maintain the privilege of a few. So, I'm gonna go to the events in my city in solidarity with the folks in Baltimore. Just like I went to the solidarity events for Michael Brown and Eric Garner. And, I'll go to the events for Larry Jackson, an unarmed black man who was gunned down by an Austin police officer, despite having committed no crime (in a rare instance of sanity, the officer has been indicted on a manslaughter charge). I'm a white, middle class, male. I don't necessarily understand all of this...but, I know I can't tell an oppressed person how to respond to their oppression.
  - vonklaus 11y ago
    > I know I can't tell an oppressed person how to respond to their oppression. Actually, it sounds like you understand it quite well.
- kajecounterhack 11y ago
  That you (and "most people") would prioritize being late for work over the livelihoods and suffering of others is why the system isn't being changed. Instead of just seeing "riots are happening" the goal is for more people to ask "why are riots happening" -- with hopes of unveiling blatant injustices within our system. That said, engaging in the conversation here is exactly a product of the riots, and exactly what is needed to effect change.
  - gambiting 11y ago
    Well, I can only relate to this from my own perspective. In my own home town, there were massive protests over closing of a local coal mine, just last year. The problem is, that in my opinion miners are already the most privileged group of workers in the whole country - they are paid well above the average, they get to retire after only 15 years of work, they are all unionized and impossible to fire no matter what they do, they pay themselves huge bonuses 3 times a year, and closing the mine would result in them getting a years-worth of salary as a severance pay. That's all despite the fact that our local coal mine has been bleeding money for years. There was no profit shown for almost a decade, they have resisted any plans for reforms or plans to sell the mine to private investors. Not to even mention that the management was hugely corrupt, consisting of family of family and friends of friends, where you could get a great position just by knowing the right people. When it has finally reached the point where the mine could not possibly operate any further and had to be closed down, hundreds of those miners went on the streets, blocking traffic, burning tires, destroying local shops and tipping cars. As someone who lives in the same city - I cannot possibly sympathize with those people. They behaved like the worst mob, holding everyone else hostage just so they could remain in their comfy job with huge benefits. I do understand that Baltimore is not the same. Not even remotely. But rioters who destroy other people's property are not gaining themselves any favours.
    - kajecounterhack 11y ago
      > I do understand that Baltimore is not the same. Not even remotely. But rioters who destroy other people's property are not gaining themselves any favours. It seems like you've analyzed the motives and privilege of the rioters in that case, which is exactly what you should do. Just like rioters after sports games (e.g SF Giants riots, Seattle Seahawks riots) are not OK, it sounds to me like your hometown's protests were poorly motivated and terrible. However, just as you state here they are NOT EQUIVALENT. Consider their privilege and motives, and it's pretty clear. That's why these Baltimore riots are important and effective and distinct. I'm not saying people / establishments harmed in the riots deserve to be. But I am also saying the riots as an event should not be simply decried but understood.
- pjc50 11y ago
  support any effort to get rid of them as a nuisance. How many people are you prepared to have killed on your behalf to achieve this? The current situation with National Guard deployment is reminiscent of the setup to the Kent State shootings, almost exactly 45 years ago.

gambiting 11y ago

Yeah, but for most people(me included), if the rioters make me late for work I am angry at them,not at the government. Therefore I am more likely to support any effort to get rid of them as a nuisance.

SwellJoe 11y ago
"if the rioters make me late for work I am angry at them,not at the government" Then, you were never on their side, anyway, and it makes no difference who you're angry at. The protesters are making it very clear who they're angry at, and making it clear they're willing to escalate in the interest of altering the status quo, even if it costs them more than it costs those in power (and it always does). That's what desperation looks like. I'm personally uncomfortable with the status quo, if the status quo has large segments of people who feel so unheard that they have to riot to get media, to get the attention of those in power, to have any sort of voice at all. Whether I agree with the tactics, or not, I recognize how much this means to so many of my fellow Americans, and I recognize that means there's something really wrong, even if I don't personally feel it in my daily life. In short: I don't like people getting hurt. I don't like people going to jail. I don't like random acts of destruction. But, even moreso, I don't like my country stepping on the throats of ~13% of the population to maintain the privilege of a few. So, I'm gonna go to the events in my city in solidarity with the folks in Baltimore. Just like I went to the solidarity events for Michael Brown and Eric Garner. And, I'll go to the events for Larry Jackson, an unarmed black man who was gunned down by an Austin police officer, despite having committed no crime (in a rare instance of sanity, the officer has been indicted on a manslaughter charge). I'm a white, middle class, male. I don't necessarily understand all of this...but, I know I can't tell an oppressed person how to respond to their oppression.
- vonklaus 11y ago
  > I know I can't tell an oppressed person how to respond to their oppression. Actually, it sounds like you understand it quite well.
kajecounterhack 11y ago
That you (and "most people") would prioritize being late for work over the livelihoods and suffering of others is why the system isn't being changed. Instead of just seeing "riots are happening" the goal is for more people to ask "why are riots happening" -- with hopes of unveiling blatant injustices within our system. That said, engaging in the conversation here is exactly a product of the riots, and exactly what is needed to effect change.
- gambiting 11y ago
  Well, I can only relate to this from my own perspective. In my own home town, there were massive protests over closing of a local coal mine, just last year. The problem is, that in my opinion miners are already the most privileged group of workers in the whole country - they are paid well above the average, they get to retire after only 15 years of work, they are all unionized and impossible to fire no matter what they do, they pay themselves huge bonuses 3 times a year, and closing the mine would result in them getting a years-worth of salary as a severance pay. That's all despite the fact that our local coal mine has been bleeding money for years. There was no profit shown for almost a decade, they have resisted any plans for reforms or plans to sell the mine to private investors. Not to even mention that the management was hugely corrupt, consisting of family of family and friends of friends, where you could get a great position just by knowing the right people. When it has finally reached the point where the mine could not possibly operate any further and had to be closed down, hundreds of those miners went on the streets, blocking traffic, burning tires, destroying local shops and tipping cars. As someone who lives in the same city - I cannot possibly sympathize with those people. They behaved like the worst mob, holding everyone else hostage just so they could remain in their comfy job with huge benefits. I do understand that Baltimore is not the same. Not even remotely. But rioters who destroy other people's property are not gaining themselves any favours.
  - kajecounterhack 11y ago
    > I do understand that Baltimore is not the same. Not even remotely. But rioters who destroy other people's property are not gaining themselves any favours. It seems like you've analyzed the motives and privilege of the rioters in that case, which is exactly what you should do. Just like rioters after sports games (e.g SF Giants riots, Seattle Seahawks riots) are not OK, it sounds to me like your hometown's protests were poorly motivated and terrible. However, just as you state here they are NOT EQUIVALENT. Consider their privilege and motives, and it's pretty clear. That's why these Baltimore riots are important and effective and distinct. I'm not saying people / establishments harmed in the riots deserve to be. But I am also saying the riots as an event should not be simply decried but understood.
pjc50 11y ago
support any effort to get rid of them as a nuisance. How many people are you prepared to have killed on your behalf to achieve this? The current situation with National Guard deployment is reminiscent of the setup to the Kent State shootings, almost exactly 45 years ago.