19 ms·

> While I do not condone the use of mind altering > substances Why not? Also, you should try beer, it's AMAZING.

by peteretep 12y ago

thret 12y ago
And coffee! Seriously, you don't know what you're missing!
- kristopolous 12y ago
  Or why not just sleep and have some dreams? People act like losing consciousness to hours of vivid hallucinations is unnatural. We have rooms and furniture dedicated to it. "This lovely house has 2 bathrooms and 3 hallucinations chambers - to prepare you for work!" Make sure to get 8 hours of delirium in darkness every day to promote a healthy lifestyle.
  - seanp2k2 12y ago
    But if the chemical which induces this state is produced outside of your own body, we'll put you in prison / execute you in other countries.
  - Cthulhu_ 12y ago
    The acts themselves aren't; introducing external, man-made chemicals to invoke those are usually unnatural though - as in, the body doesn't make them themselves in such quantities. You know what I mean. Recreational drugs shouldn't be a problem though, as long as the user is aware of its effects and doesn't go overboard. Heavier stuff like heroin should remain illegal though.
    - simplexion 12y ago
      Why should heroin remain illegal? People consume heroin like crazy in hospitals and very few become addicted. Why keep it illegal? Why not heavily control it. Do something along the lines of; if you want to use heroin recreationally you must also attend 10 counselling sessions at your own cost to reduce the possibility of addiction.
      - DanBC 12y ago
        > People consume heroin like crazy in hospitals and very few become addicted. That's a poor argument. People consume heroin and opiate medication like crazy outside hospital, and quite. Few of them become addicted. The problem here is with inappropriate prescribing of increasing amounts of opiates for long term pain instead of better access to pain management clinics.
        pessimizer 12y ago
        The problem here is with heroin doses that cost about a nickel to produce (barring government interference) being marked up 100x, forcing a life for addicts consumed entirely with a degrading pursuit of cash. A heavy heroin addict who has easy, cheap access to heroin is like anyone else with a mild chronic disease.
    - kristopolous 12y ago
      Many people who get on heroin got there because of an initial self-medication for some underlying issue. Heroin usage was rampant in Vietnam. Once the troops came back, the heroin use went away. Opioids aren't simple drugs. For the "addicts", the primary problem is not the drug - it's the prohibitive acrobatics to mental health care, medication, and ongoing maintenance. No wonder why most people on methadone (mu-opioid maintenance) are below the poverty line - they didn't get adequate help early enough. The minuscule percentage of psychiatric practitioners who accept the government health plans place them on separate low-priority waiting lists. Street drugs are more accessible and affordable because we are just that stunningly bad at providing effective on-going psychiatry to the poor. We've chosen to criminalize the victims of this catastrophic failure and claim they are at fault for not succeeding with a system they can't afford, don't have access to, and doesn't want them.
    - tyho 12y ago
      Heroin is one of the most harmful drugs to the user[1]. Its usage should not be encouraged by anybody, but heroin should absolutely be legal, heavily regulated, but legal. The VAST majority of heroin related deaths are just that, related to heroin but not caused by it. Heroin is actually a remarkably safe drug in a clinical context, it does almost no long term damage. The main problems with it are that it is highly addictive, users rapidly develop a very high tolerance and it is fatal in overdose. Heroin overdose is very easy to treat, there is a antidote to heroin called Naloxone. If administered in time, it will almost certainly save the life of somebody who is overdosing on heroin. People who use heroin die because they share needles and contract diseases such as HIV/AIDS. People who use heroin die because they do not use clean needles and get sepsis when they inject. People who use heroin die because they do not have pure heroin. Heroin can be cut with both active and inactive substances. Some of the inactive substances used are toxic, they make accurate dosing, which is critical to using a drug with such a low ratio between fatal dose and active dose safely. Active cuts such as Fentanyl are equally dangerous[2], they make it impossible for the user to accurately dose. I am not calling for heroin to be sold in super markets or off licences. What I am suggesting however is that for anybody who wants it, they can go to some sort of health center, be lectured about the harms, taught how to inject properly and how to administer Naloxone in an overdose situation and then be given a licence to buy heroin. The heroin would then be dispensed by pharmacies, it would come with an adequate supply of needles, Naloxone. Most importantly the heroin would be pure and unadulterated, in solution already. There is now a much lower risk of overdose as it is far easier for a user to dose themselves. The heroin does not come with dangerous cuts. They will have an adequate supply of needles so there will be less needle sharing and less infectious disease[3]. The obvious argument against this radical approach is that it would increase heroin usage. There is no precedent for this kind of program so I cannot refute that claim with any certainty. From intuition however, I do not think there are many people where the only thing holding them back from using the drug is the current prohibition. I have not met a single person who has said "If heroin was legal I might start doing it". What I do know is under our current system of prohibition heroin usage has increased, deaths associated from it our sky-rocketing in recent years and the politicians current answer to the crises is harsher punishment for users and dealers despite that in the past, heavier punishments do not correlate with either lower use or less deaths. It is time to try something radically different, I would love to see a trial of this sort of system somewhere in the world. [1] http://www.sg.unimaas.nl/_OLD/oudelezingen/dddsd.pdf http://www.sg.unimaas.nl/_OLD/oudelezingen/dddsd.pdf [2] http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/rash-of-fatal-overdoses-in-montreal-could-be-linked-to-fentanyl-1.2692418 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/rash-of-fatal-overdos... [3] http://www.who.int/hiv/pub/prev_care/effectivenesssterileneedle.pdf http://www.who.int/hiv/pub/prev_care/effectivenesssterilenee...
  - thret 12y ago
    The relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/203/ https://xkcd.com/203/
tyho 12y ago
There seems to be some sort of taboo on getting high for whatever reason. I have asked a few people opposed to drugs why they were opposed to drugs and their answers were mostly health related i.e. Cannabis gives you psychosis so you shouldn’t smoke it. I then ask if, hypothetically, there was a drug developed which produces intense happiness for one hour but had no side effects, caused no long term damage and was totally benign, would it be morally acceptable for a person to take that substance, the answer is usually a firm no. We seem to have some vestigial opposition to joy and happiness left over from Catholicism.
- NotOscarWilde 12y ago
  >I then ask if, hypothetically, there was a drug developed which produces intense happiness for one hour but had no side effects, caused no long term damage and was totally benign, would it be morally acceptable for a person to take that substance Being morally acceptable is just a tip of the iceberg. Consider this: playing video games is perfectly legal, morally allowed, and the escapism and progress usually triggers some form of comfort and happiness. Still, there is a lot of people who try hard to limit their gameplay, to focus on their work, school and other activities. Procrastination (like reading Reddit/HN/Facebook several times a day) is quite similar. My understanding is that to increase focus to the comparably unexciting work, you have to limit the activities that are easy, exciting and rewarding. For some it is easy because they love their work so much, the work is not mentally draining, or they never tasted these easy and rewarding distractions. For others, it is a conscious effort and a life-long struggle to be productive and not spend your day on Facebook with maybe 3 hours of real work. I believe that as drugs become easier to obtain, side-effect-free and happiness-inducing, the struggle with procrastination and escapism will be that much harder.
- maccard 12y ago
  > There seems to be some sort of taboo on getting high for whatever reason. My two problems with this is - 1) A number of people who recreationally use the substances keep telling me "You've gotta try this" - Its none of your business what I decide I want to take or not take. (Note this also applies to alcohol) The second issue is the real reason - There's not a problem with the majority of these drugs in their pure forms, but you don't have any guarantee what you're taking is what you think it is. At least when I walk into a pharmacy for X or Y, there is some accountability - the pharmacy doesn't want to stock bad batches of the drugs as they'll get closed down/imprisoned; The drug companies don't want to ship bad batches - it's a legal nightmare for them if someone experiences bad side effects from the drugs. If I buy from guy X on the street, and it's 50% cocaine and 50% rat poison - what recourse do I (or someone who is dependent on me being financially/personally) have against them?
user_0001 12y ago
As are MDMA, ketamine, LSD, mushrooms, 2CB, cocaine, heroin, amphetamine, methamphetamine and all the rest.
geebee 12y ago
if by whiskey you mean..., then yeah, it's amazing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If-by-whiskey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If-by-whiskey

> While I do not condone the use of mind altering > substances Why not? Also, you should try beer, it's AMAZING.

thret 12y ago

And coffee! Seriously, you don't know what you're missing!

kristopolous 12y ago
Or why not just sleep and have some dreams? People act like losing consciousness to hours of vivid hallucinations is unnatural. We have rooms and furniture dedicated to it. "This lovely house has 2 bathrooms and 3 hallucinations chambers - to prepare you for work!" Make sure to get 8 hours of delirium in darkness every day to promote a healthy lifestyle.
- seanp2k2 12y ago
  But if the chemical which induces this state is produced outside of your own body, we'll put you in prison / execute you in other countries.
- Cthulhu_ 12y ago
  The acts themselves aren't; introducing external, man-made chemicals to invoke those are usually unnatural though - as in, the body doesn't make them themselves in such quantities. You know what I mean. Recreational drugs shouldn't be a problem though, as long as the user is aware of its effects and doesn't go overboard. Heavier stuff like heroin should remain illegal though.
  - simplexion 12y ago
    Why should heroin remain illegal? People consume heroin like crazy in hospitals and very few become addicted. Why keep it illegal? Why not heavily control it. Do something along the lines of; if you want to use heroin recreationally you must also attend 10 counselling sessions at your own cost to reduce the possibility of addiction.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      > People consume heroin like crazy in hospitals and very few become addicted. That's a poor argument. People consume heroin and opiate medication like crazy outside hospital, and quite. Few of them become addicted. The problem here is with inappropriate prescribing of increasing amounts of opiates for long term pain instead of better access to pain management clinics.
      - pessimizer 12y ago
        The problem here is with heroin doses that cost about a nickel to produce (barring government interference) being marked up 100x, forcing a life for addicts consumed entirely with a degrading pursuit of cash. A heavy heroin addict who has easy, cheap access to heroin is like anyone else with a mild chronic disease.
  - kristopolous 12y ago
    Many people who get on heroin got there because of an initial self-medication for some underlying issue. Heroin usage was rampant in Vietnam. Once the troops came back, the heroin use went away. Opioids aren't simple drugs. For the "addicts", the primary problem is not the drug - it's the prohibitive acrobatics to mental health care, medication, and ongoing maintenance. No wonder why most people on methadone (mu-opioid maintenance) are below the poverty line - they didn't get adequate help early enough. The minuscule percentage of psychiatric practitioners who accept the government health plans place them on separate low-priority waiting lists. Street drugs are more accessible and affordable because we are just that stunningly bad at providing effective on-going psychiatry to the poor. We've chosen to criminalize the victims of this catastrophic failure and claim they are at fault for not succeeding with a system they can't afford, don't have access to, and doesn't want them.
  - tyho 12y ago
    Heroin is one of the most harmful drugs to the user[1]. Its usage should not be encouraged by anybody, but heroin should absolutely be legal, heavily regulated, but legal. The VAST majority of heroin related deaths are just that, related to heroin but not caused by it. Heroin is actually a remarkably safe drug in a clinical context, it does almost no long term damage. The main problems with it are that it is highly addictive, users rapidly develop a very high tolerance and it is fatal in overdose. Heroin overdose is very easy to treat, there is a antidote to heroin called Naloxone. If administered in time, it will almost certainly save the life of somebody who is overdosing on heroin. People who use heroin die because they share needles and contract diseases such as HIV/AIDS. People who use heroin die because they do not use clean needles and get sepsis when they inject. People who use heroin die because they do not have pure heroin. Heroin can be cut with both active and inactive substances. Some of the inactive substances used are toxic, they make accurate dosing, which is critical to using a drug with such a low ratio between fatal dose and active dose safely. Active cuts such as Fentanyl are equally dangerous[2], they make it impossible for the user to accurately dose. I am not calling for heroin to be sold in super markets or off licences. What I am suggesting however is that for anybody who wants it, they can go to some sort of health center, be lectured about the harms, taught how to inject properly and how to administer Naloxone in an overdose situation and then be given a licence to buy heroin. The heroin would then be dispensed by pharmacies, it would come with an adequate supply of needles, Naloxone. Most importantly the heroin would be pure and unadulterated, in solution already. There is now a much lower risk of overdose as it is far easier for a user to dose themselves. The heroin does not come with dangerous cuts. They will have an adequate supply of needles so there will be less needle sharing and less infectious disease[3]. The obvious argument against this radical approach is that it would increase heroin usage. There is no precedent for this kind of program so I cannot refute that claim with any certainty. From intuition however, I do not think there are many people where the only thing holding them back from using the drug is the current prohibition. I have not met a single person who has said "If heroin was legal I might start doing it". What I do know is under our current system of prohibition heroin usage has increased, deaths associated from it our sky-rocketing in recent years and the politicians current answer to the crises is harsher punishment for users and dealers despite that in the past, heavier punishments do not correlate with either lower use or less deaths. It is time to try something radically different, I would love to see a trial of this sort of system somewhere in the world. [1] http://www.sg.unimaas.nl/_OLD/oudelezingen/dddsd.pdf http://www.sg.unimaas.nl/_OLD/oudelezingen/dddsd.pdf [2] http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/rash-of-fatal-overdoses-in-montreal-could-be-linked-to-fentanyl-1.2692418 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/rash-of-fatal-overdos... [3] http://www.who.int/hiv/pub/prev_care/effectivenesssterileneedle.pdf http://www.who.int/hiv/pub/prev_care/effectivenesssterilenee...
- thret 12y ago
  The relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/203/ https://xkcd.com/203/

tyho 12y ago

There seems to be some sort of taboo on getting high for whatever reason. I have asked a few people opposed to drugs why they were opposed to drugs and their answers were mostly health related i.e. Cannabis gives you psychosis so you shouldn’t smoke it. I then ask if, hypothetically, there was a drug developed which produces intense happiness for one hour but had no side effects, caused no long term damage and was totally benign, would it be morally acceptable for a person to take that substance, the answer is usually a firm no. We seem to have some vestigial opposition to joy and happiness left over from Catholicism.

NotOscarWilde 12y ago
>I then ask if, hypothetically, there was a drug developed which produces intense happiness for one hour but had no side effects, caused no long term damage and was totally benign, would it be morally acceptable for a person to take that substance Being morally acceptable is just a tip of the iceberg. Consider this: playing video games is perfectly legal, morally allowed, and the escapism and progress usually triggers some form of comfort and happiness. Still, there is a lot of people who try hard to limit their gameplay, to focus on their work, school and other activities. Procrastination (like reading Reddit/HN/Facebook several times a day) is quite similar. My understanding is that to increase focus to the comparably unexciting work, you have to limit the activities that are easy, exciting and rewarding. For some it is easy because they love their work so much, the work is not mentally draining, or they never tasted these easy and rewarding distractions. For others, it is a conscious effort and a life-long struggle to be productive and not spend your day on Facebook with maybe 3 hours of real work. I believe that as drugs become easier to obtain, side-effect-free and happiness-inducing, the struggle with procrastination and escapism will be that much harder.
maccard 12y ago
> There seems to be some sort of taboo on getting high for whatever reason. My two problems with this is - 1) A number of people who recreationally use the substances keep telling me "You've gotta try this" - Its none of your business what I decide I want to take or not take. (Note this also applies to alcohol) The second issue is the real reason - There's not a problem with the majority of these drugs in their pure forms, but you don't have any guarantee what you're taking is what you think it is. At least when I walk into a pharmacy for X or Y, there is some accountability - the pharmacy doesn't want to stock bad batches of the drugs as they'll get closed down/imprisoned; The drug companies don't want to ship bad batches - it's a legal nightmare for them if someone experiences bad side effects from the drugs. If I buy from guy X on the street, and it's 50% cocaine and 50% rat poison - what recourse do I (or someone who is dependent on me being financially/personally) have against them?

user_0001 12y ago

As are MDMA, ketamine, LSD, mushrooms, 2CB, cocaine, heroin, amphetamine, methamphetamine and all the rest.

geebee 12y ago

if by whiskey you mean..., then yeah, it's amazing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If-by-whiskey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If-by-whiskey