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Batteries are not clean; lithium mines are one ugly slight and recycling is difficult: http://whenonearth.net/awe-inspiring-aerial-images-worlds-mega-mines/ htt

Batteries are not clean; lithium mines are one ugly slight and recycling is difficult: http://whenonearth.net/awe-inspiring-aerial-images-worlds-mega-mines/ http://whenonearth.net/awe-inspiring-aerial-images-worlds-me... In my clueless opinion these batteries should be used strategically in places where solar, wind, and hydro power are unavailable.

Zombieball 11y ago
Yes the real breakthrough tech needed is a new battery! Which hopefully Tesla is on track to develop,because as is, electric cars are just not scalable.
- TaylorAlexander 11y ago
  People say that, but from what I've heard there is plenty of lithium in the world to increase use 20% every year for 30 years before we need to get more creative in how we mine it. That's a huge total increase and means that electric cars totally are scalable. Do you have information supporting the idea that electric cars aren't scalable? My understanding is that they definitely are scalable.
  - CamperBob2 11y ago
    Charging is where the scaling problems come in. If everybody in your neighborhood plugs in their Tesla at their home at night and/or at their office during the day, it will likely cause brownouts and blackouts in areas with grid service that's already marginal for current demand. Hence Musks's interest in load-shifting technology.
    - will_hughes 11y ago
      Utilities have existing techniques for distributing that load. They already work with smelters and other large power users to coordinate their power demands. In some places utilities are offering discounted electricity prices if the car charging infrastructure is hooked up to their smart metering/control system. This allows the company to signal when cars should start/stop charging. There's no reason they can't work with car makers to introduce two way signalling between the charging infrastructure and the grid - the car can tell the grid that it needs to use X kW by Y time, and the grid can communicate the current permitted load. Potentially with some option for the customer to pay a premium to charge immediately at a higher rate.
    - higherpurpose 11y ago
      You're assuming a world where 80% of the people already have an EV. You don't think most of those people will also have solar panels and battery backups at home (from which to charge the car at night).
    - Shivetya 11y ago
      it isn't so much how many people charging, its the ability of people to charge where they live and the lack of ability to truly quick charge the battery. As in, damn the kids left the car unplugged and I have to work. even thirty minutes at a super charger is not a good solution. So it comes down to a compromise, a good range extender technology and batteries for the majority of driving. That until truly faster charging can be achieved with house hold wiring.
      - TeMPOraL 11y ago
        > As in, damn the kids left the car unplugged and I have to work. even thirty minutes at a super charger is not a good solution. I don't see this as something to worry about - it's just a household habit problem. Pretty much every new device introduces some, and people quickly adapt to use the device properly.
        dpark 11y ago
        The argument is silly. The kids could also forget (or just not bother) to put gas in the car and leave it on empty. Yet strangely we manage to make do with gas-powered cars.
    - spacefight 11y ago
      Solar power, local wind turbines, , etc. We need to get off the grid and start working on isolated energy systems.
  - crystal_crook 11y ago
    There is definitely enough lithium in the world to increase the production of lithium-ion EVs. From how I understand it it though, it is unlikely that lithium-ion EV could replace every car currently running in the world. http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/eason2/ http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/eason2/
TaylorAlexander 11y ago
Whether or not batteries are "clean" seems to be a matter of opinion. My understanding is that lithium mines aren't inherently unclean, but many current lithium mines are unclean. The idea is that it is good to support bad tech, since public pressure could ensure it is clean. That's unlike fossil fuels, which can never be clean. All that is just hearsay though, I can't confirm its accuracy. Still, some might say that carbon pollution and groundwater pollution are different problems. One may decide the trade off between one and the other is worthwhile.
zachalexander 11y ago
> Batteries are not clean; lithium mines are one ugly slight and recycling is difficult: You are conflating two senses of "clean" that are radically different in meaning and importance. -- Fossil fuels are !clean in that they may destroy all life on earth via catastrophic climate change. -- Lithium mines are !clean in that they present waste disposal challenges and some people find them "ugly". It's like saying "your non–blood diamond is still a blood diamond because the jeweler got a papercut while handling the documentation".

Zombieball 11y ago

Yes the real breakthrough tech needed is a new battery! Which hopefully Tesla is on track to develop,because as is, electric cars are just not scalable.

TaylorAlexander 11y ago
People say that, but from what I've heard there is plenty of lithium in the world to increase use 20% every year for 30 years before we need to get more creative in how we mine it. That's a huge total increase and means that electric cars totally are scalable. Do you have information supporting the idea that electric cars aren't scalable? My understanding is that they definitely are scalable.
- CamperBob2 11y ago
  Charging is where the scaling problems come in. If everybody in your neighborhood plugs in their Tesla at their home at night and/or at their office during the day, it will likely cause brownouts and blackouts in areas with grid service that's already marginal for current demand. Hence Musks's interest in load-shifting technology.
  - will_hughes 11y ago
    Utilities have existing techniques for distributing that load. They already work with smelters and other large power users to coordinate their power demands. In some places utilities are offering discounted electricity prices if the car charging infrastructure is hooked up to their smart metering/control system. This allows the company to signal when cars should start/stop charging. There's no reason they can't work with car makers to introduce two way signalling between the charging infrastructure and the grid - the car can tell the grid that it needs to use X kW by Y time, and the grid can communicate the current permitted load. Potentially with some option for the customer to pay a premium to charge immediately at a higher rate.
  - higherpurpose 11y ago
    You're assuming a world where 80% of the people already have an EV. You don't think most of those people will also have solar panels and battery backups at home (from which to charge the car at night).
  - Shivetya 11y ago
    it isn't so much how many people charging, its the ability of people to charge where they live and the lack of ability to truly quick charge the battery. As in, damn the kids left the car unplugged and I have to work. even thirty minutes at a super charger is not a good solution. So it comes down to a compromise, a good range extender technology and batteries for the majority of driving. That until truly faster charging can be achieved with house hold wiring.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      > As in, damn the kids left the car unplugged and I have to work. even thirty minutes at a super charger is not a good solution. I don't see this as something to worry about - it's just a household habit problem. Pretty much every new device introduces some, and people quickly adapt to use the device properly.
      - dpark 11y ago
        The argument is silly. The kids could also forget (or just not bother) to put gas in the car and leave it on empty. Yet strangely we manage to make do with gas-powered cars.
  - spacefight 11y ago
    Solar power, local wind turbines, , etc. We need to get off the grid and start working on isolated energy systems.
- crystal_crook 11y ago
  There is definitely enough lithium in the world to increase the production of lithium-ion EVs. From how I understand it it though, it is unlikely that lithium-ion EV could replace every car currently running in the world. http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/eason2/ http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/eason2/

TaylorAlexander 11y ago

Whether or not batteries are "clean" seems to be a matter of opinion. My understanding is that lithium mines aren't inherently unclean, but many current lithium mines are unclean. The idea is that it is good to support bad tech, since public pressure could ensure it is clean. That's unlike fossil fuels, which can never be clean. All that is just hearsay though, I can't confirm its accuracy. Still, some might say that carbon pollution and groundwater pollution are different problems. One may decide the trade off between one and the other is worthwhile.

zachalexander 11y ago

> Batteries are not clean; lithium mines are one ugly slight and recycling is difficult: You are conflating two senses of "clean" that are radically different in meaning and importance. -- Fossil fuels are !clean in that they may destroy all life on earth via catastrophic climate change. -- Lithium mines are !clean in that they present waste disposal challenges and some people find them "ugly". It's like saying "your non–blood diamond is still a blood diamond because the jeweler got a papercut while handling the documentation".