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DragonBox: Secretly teach algebra to your children
- rkda 11y agoWish more elearning games were like this. Ones I had were terribly boring.
- eric_bullington 11y agoFor younger kids, like preschool age, we had pretty good luck with games from Thup Games[1]. The sounds effects from the games will drive you nuts after a while (so headphones are handy), but I recall my kids learning a lot of reading skills from these apps. Haven't had as much luck with educational apps now that my kids are post pre-school, so I'm very glad to see the recommendations for Dragonbox. 1. http://thup.com/ http://thup.com/
- rkda 11y agoDon't have kids yet but I'll bookmark this for when the time comes. Thanks! ;-)
- cositarica 11y agothis one is boring.
- dankohn1 11y agoYeah, my kids went all the way through this at 5. It's amazing.
- MichaelGG 11y agoI gave it to my 5 year old and she loved it. The best part was after a few sections, I wrote out simple "x + 5 = 7" type equations and she had no trouble figuring them out. I try to get them to understand the same for other things. A billion plus a million is easy, it is similar as an orange plus a pear. It's so awesome to see their eyes open up at these things. My younger daughter has been going on for days about powers of two. She doesn't know how to multiply, but exponentiaton just tickles her. I showed her some of Vi Hart's videos, and now she's in love with hexaflexagons. It's so wonderful to see the beauty of math, and moreso when a child is discovering it.
- pete23 11y agoThis is brilliant. My kids at 7 and 5 loved it.
- rkda 11y agoDo they still play it or have they outgrown it now?
- tagawa 11y agoOur child is older and he loves the 12+ version. Made him do a little bit every day, he thought it was a treat and I was thrilled to see him gradually absorbing the concepts of algebra. Not sure whether it's connected but he now says he likes maths at school :-)
- sswaner 11y agoMy daughter and I were discussing middle school (she will be in 6th grade next year). She said she wanted to replay DragonBox to help get her ready for algebra class. She mastered the game in a day last year and still recalls it as her favorite game "that actually taught her something".
- toxicFork 11y agoIs there something like this but for code? I can imagine having some visual blocks and wires to get a wanted output image, and then gradually it could use symbols or function names instead of the pictures, or you could even go deeper into the blocks to get down to more lower level instructions... Like Blueprints in UE4 : https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/Blueprints/GettingStarted/index.html https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/Blueprints/G...
- j_s 11y agoCheck out the following all based on the 'connect the puzzle pieces' UI of App Inventor: http://appinventor.mit.edu/explore/designer-blocks.html http://appinventor.mit.edu/explore/designer-blocks.html https://blockly-games.appspot.com/ https://blockly-games.appspot.com/ (transitions to JavaScript) http://pencilcode.net/ http://pencilcode.net/ https://www.makewonder.com/ https://www.makewonder.com/ (physical robots)
- rkda 11y agoThat would be awesome. I like CodeCombat but it's still direct coding. It'd be nice to learn variables, control flow structures etc but visually. The same way that DragonBox doesn't make it explicit that you're actually learning algebra.
- tptacek 11y agoYou mean like Scratch?
- outsidetheparty 11y agoscratch.mit.edu is not far from what you're describing.
- Steuard 11y agoA friend of mine created the board game Robot Turtles ("programming for preschoolers"), which has a bit of that goal. It's a parent-child(ren) thing rather than a solo activity, mind you. http://www.robotturtles.com/ http://www.robotturtles.com/
- Ollinson 11y ago
- esaym 11y agoThis looks awesome, but unfortunately I made a rule in my house that says "You can't play a video game in this house unless you are the one that invented it", so now I am quite conflicted...
- rkda 11y agoJust curious, what's with the rule? Also, do they know how to code already?
- monk_e_boy 11y agoAnd how would they possibly create a good game without playing one?
- julius 11y agoThe rule excludes video games at the childrens house. The rule says nothing about playing video games at a friends house or board games etc. at home.
- Ollinson 11y agopoor kids
- esaym 11y agoI wasted most of my youth sitting in front of the TV, I don't want that to happen to my own children. I'd rather them do something more constructive with their time.
- cryodesign 11y agoRather than banning it completely, why not set some limits? Also kids learn by modding existing games, see the recent Minecraft / Visual Studio news. I agree, wasting time on shooters probably isn't a good idea, but there are very good story driven games (monkey island type of games) or strategy games (sim city etc) that kids could get inspired by.
- ommunist 11y agoI wished my kid never touched iPhone before the age of 16, but that is impossible. However this app justifies iPhone usage by kid, for a little bit.
- vnchr 11y agoExcessive screen time is a real challenge for this generation that's been born to it. We (SO and I) have a newborn, and I often use my computer or phone around him. We think it might be detrimental to his development if he used electronics as much as I do, but I am not a good example to him. Our strategy for balance is to (1) provide a lot of alternative means for engagement like outdoor activities, excursions, and interesting physical toys; and (2) provide many useful learning apps like this one that will harness healthy, natural interest in electronics with added developmental and educational benefits. Growing up, I always sought out electronics and gadgets, from Gameboy, to Palm Pilot, to iPhone. But I think we are well past the tipping point where moderation is easier than excess with mobile devices. Adding more of the "good" stuff, we hope, will crowd out too much of the "bad" stuff.
- ommunist 11y agoYup, in our case strict private catholic school is not an option.
- zenocon 11y agoI have used this game with my 5 yo (now 6), and I can say that it is done really well, and kept him engaged. YMMV, but this seems like the right approach for math/edu apps.
- politiken 11y agoThere was an interview with the guy who made it on Quartz this week: http://qz.com/390854/the-video-game-that-teaches-algebra-to-4-year-olds/ http://qz.com/390854/the-video-game-that-teaches-algebra-to-...
- rkda 11y agoApparently it became so popular in Norway that it actually beat Angry Birds there. Granted, that was in 2012 http://archive.wired.com/geekdad/2012/06/dragonbox/all/ http://archive.wired.com/geekdad/2012/06/dragonbox/all/
- politiken 11y agoThere is also this one from Forbes. It claims it only takes 42 minutes, but that depends on how you define "learning algebra", i guess. Still a great game that both my kids loved.
- rkda 11y agoCan you post the link to the article? Thanks! Edit: Found it! http://www.forbes.com/sites/jordanshapiro/2013/07/01/it-only-takes-about-42-minutes-to-learn-algebra-with-video-games/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/jordanshapiro/2013/07/01/it-only...
- GrantS 11y agoInteresting. There must be something unique about the market for apps in Norway as I managed to hit a similar milestone [1] (outselling Angry Birds in Norway for one day) in 2011. [1] http://trimensional.com/blog/2011/05/23/trimensional-is-1-in-norway/ http://trimensional.com/blog/2011/05/23/trimensional-is-1-in...
- dicroce 11y agoDragonBox is the best. I have bought literally everything this company has created... and I will continue to do so. Take a look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLA-fde2eR0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLA-fde2eR0 That is the typical response to the game... My own boys were solving equations within a few hours... This is clearly how math should be taught...
- cositarica 11y agofuck this shit.
- lacostej 11y agoHello HN ! Thanks to the nice comments here. Very appreciated! To add a bit to the discussion: we made 3 games so far, 2 versions of our algebra game and one about geometry (Euclidian geometry proof really). We also co-organized Algebra Challenges with our research partner the University of Washington. As an example, one of those events, in Norway last year, gathered 36k students from ages 7 to 16. They solved almost 8 million equations in under a week. We are not just app makers, we are more focused on providing tools and social innovations. We would like to do coding one day, but first things first! Our next games are targeting younger kids and number sense. Feel free to ask questions, or take contact! Jerome, head-nerd @ WWTK :)
- rkda 11y agoWhat's your inspiration for the game btw? Also, how did you design it? :D Any advice for people who want to make similar games? :)
- lacostej 11y agoHere are a few words from my colleague JB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_QWyRxj_og https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_QWyRxj_og Advice: focus on the kids, test test test
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- AndrewKemendo 11y agoHow did you land on $5.31 for the price on the Android store?
- S4M 11y agoWow, I am working on something very similar... still in beta... it's here: http://magako.com/exercise/symbolic/eng http://magako.com/exercise/symbolic/eng
- klunger 11y agoI interned with these guys back in 2012 when I was a student. They are a really great team with an inspiring vision. So glad to see them here on the front page!
- dworin 11y agoDragonbox isn't just for kids! My sister was studying for the GRE and struggling with the math section. For people who aren't as into math, there are a lot of things you forgot, and probably a few you just never learned right (for her it was fractions/division). She gives DragonBox a lot of credit for helping her boost her score, and she still plays with it from time to time just because it's fun.
- nicolethenerd 11y agoFunny coincidence - I was just reading about DragonBox this morning in The Game Believes in You (a new book by Greg Toppo about educational games) and here it is on HN! The book is a good read (so far) if you're interested in this sort of stuff.
- ColinWright 11y agoI expect I'm too late to the party for this comment to be noticed, but I thought I'd add something. Some three years ago when a Wired article about this was submitted[0] I wrote an extended comment[1] expressing some concerns about this. The Wired article has since gone missing, but the HN discussion remains. Let me say from the get-go that anything that helps get over the barrier for playing with, experimenting with, and generally messing about with algebra type stuff is a Good Thing(tm). I'm really pleased to see this here and doing well. There is a comment here[2] that gives an instance of exactly the sort of thing I'm worried about. Kids could play the game for a bit, decide they've had enough, and then move on. The question is: will the things they've done in playing the game have a positive effect? I can envisaged the possibility that kids that have played DragonBox and then moved on with get introduced to "proper" algebra later and not even bother trying too hard, because they'll think "I've done this, I don't care any more." So let me say that I think it's important that these things exist, and I think it's great that they are being developed, and I really want them to succeed in their own right. But having said that, I'd be reluctant to herald games like this as the future of teaching math. I'll finish here by quoting the last paragraph of my previous lengthy reply[1]: ... I think this is a wonderful tool, and it has the potential to be a fantastic aid to learning. I am deeply uneasy about the further divorcing of algebraic manipulation from any sense of meaning, but I look forward with interest to see if it can be used in a meaningful way. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4105397 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4105397 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4106567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4106567 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9472466 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9472466
- jerf 11y agoI just downloaded this for my soon-to-be seven-year-old, to experiment. ($5 for a shot at making math easier is a no-brainer bet... if he takes one look and rejects it, well, $5.) My goal is not that he literally walks away knowing algebra. My goal is that his brain gets primed with the patterns he'll need to learn algebra. Even if he never consciously puts the two things together, it can only help to have pre-burned neural pathways for the sorts of otherwise counter-intuitive manipulations that algebra calls for. My feeling is that the exact opposite of what you fear will happen; children with prior exposure will find algebra simply easier, and in so finding it easier are far more likely to engage, even with the shit school curricula for algebra we have.
- pratikch 11y agoThis appears to be good. Worth a try.
- disposablename 11y agoSee also: Frog Fractions! http://jayisgames.com/games/frog-fractions/ http://jayisgames.com/games/frog-fractions/
- scrrr 11y agoI don't know about this particular software, but I'm not too sure about this whole "giving my kid an advantage in life early on" business. I think there was a study done [1] that showed that love and security and the availability of parents and family mixed with a certain degree of freedom were more crucial to success later in life than skills such as math. It allowed children to explore the world on their own, but if anything bad happened they could always rely on parents to be there for them. To tell them things would be fine, or to put a band-aid on their wounds. This allows children to develop trust in others, self-confidence and a positive outlook in life. While at the same time motivating them to explore the world. However, another very important thing was allowing the kids to join in when the family (or other kids) were solving a problem. This could be anything from helping with cooking, fixing something in the house or collecting firewood. I assume the benefit of this was not only practice of problem-solving and social skills, but also allowing them to develop a sense of self-worth. (The problem is, I guess, that our modern world is solving all our problems for us. We don't repair, we replace. We buy solutions for things that we'd had better dealt with ourselves. And so forth. And that we put so much emphasis on self-reliance, which seems to be a good thing but in reality has serious disadvantages. I believe this is one of the big (root-) problems of our modern civilisation that nobody seems to be talking about, but I might be wrong.) Furthermore, the ability to work on a specific problem _with others_ is a different from being able to do maths alone. It teaches all the right things in life. So I guess the point is: If you want your kid to succeed, be there for and allow it to take part in life the way he or she choses to (all within reasonable limits of course, you still need raise your kids to be decent etc.), especially with others. [1] wish I had a link.. :/
- trey-jones 11y agoI agree with everything you say. Personally I work on mobile apps for a living, but our family does not own a tablet and we seldom allow our 2 daughters - ages 1 and 5 - to use our phones. But! As a parent, there are times when you need to distract the kids for a few minutes. My main goal during those distraction times would be that they are distracted sufficiently, and enjoy themselves. If they happen to also "learn Algebra", well I don't really have a problem with that. So I see this as something that is probably worth having on a tablet instead of the completely made-up-off-the-top-of-my-head Disney Princess Tea Party App.