6 ms·

Improving the GitHub Workflow for the Microsoft Community

124 points by gjtorikian 11y ago

apalmer 11y ago
Cool, Microsoft is a beast when focused. Wonder how long it will last.
- tdicola 11y ago
  This announcement is from Github, not Microsoft.
  - Lancey 11y ago
    I'm sure Microsoft had some part in making this happen.
- perdunov 11y ago
  It's almost surreal to see that one of the douchiest companies around is so radically transforming.
  - nine_k 11y ago
    Maybe MS desktop OS division was sort of douche, or maybe desktop MS office is not all that innovative. OTOH, MS Research was always very cool (and they started contributing to e.g. OpenBSD many years ago), OS kernel has always been much better than a glance over win32 API shows you, and Office365 is definitely world-class. I suspect that the engineering culture in MS has always been rather good (with engineers like you and me, and many of them a good deal better); the radical transformation is probably mostly within the top management.
    - hirsin 11y ago
      The kernel is _very cool_. I get to work near it, and their description of the NT multi-headed setup helped change my mind about Microsoft engineering. e.g. the POSIX subsystem is just another NT usermode head, so it's incredibly performant.
      - perdunov 11y ago
        I wish they shipped their superb kernel as a separate product allowing third-party shells, as their UI design division has gone off the rails. Actually, I think there should be a law for making OS kernels replaceable and separate from UI shells. I have to use Windows as certain software and drivers are not available/performant enough under Linux, so I have to deal with the crazy Windows 8.1 UX.
        tacos 11y ago
        They already do. It was NT Embedded back then and Windows Nano Server now. Believe me, they're aware of the value of that kernel. Also it's trivial to replace the UI. Minus the 5 billion dollars in R&D of course. But it's just one registry key if you want to get started on it...
      - beagle3 11y ago
        I am not up to date on the latest kernels - I last wrote an NT driver in 2002 (Win2K/XP compatible), but based on that experience I beg to differ. My no-stalgia: It was an overengineered beast at the time, with an original grand vision that wasn't performing well enough, and seemed to be fixed with duct tape. The Video Driver + GDI, originally conceived to be outside the kernel, was too slow - so it was moved back in, causing a lot of problems. The IO subsystem was nicely abstracted with IRPs. Except it was too slow, so they added the "FastPath" interface, which fixed the speed but made it impossible to safely unload or stack drivers. IIRC, they were the main reason for the "PlugFest" parties, where microsoft would invite vendors to come to place and then install their drivers in random orders and to debug the collisions -- the fact that microsoft needed to organize these parties is an indication of how bad it was. The POSIX subsystem was removed in XP/Server 2002. Perhaps you mean SFU? That was discontinued in 2004. Oh, you mean SUA (nee Interix). Well, that was removed in 8.1. And your experience might be different, but "incredibly performant" is quite the opposite of my experience with the POSIX subsystem.
        hirsin 11y ago
        You certainly work(ed) closer than I do, my experiences are mostly based off of what I see around me. I assume the kernel has changed quite a bit since Vista. I imagine that the POSIX system hasn't been entirely killed off quite yet, given it's already come back twice.
ripberge 11y ago
I guess the biggest functionality here is the ability to create repositories easier from within VS? Because Visual Studio already has very good integration with git. I probably only use git from the command line once every couple of months.
- mariusmg 11y ago
  Yeah, not sure about this either. What's exactly the point in having that Github UI in VS ? A IDE is for writing code not integrating all kind of crap into it......
  - doctoboggan 11y ago
    > A IDE is for writing code not integrating all kind of crap into it...... The "I" in IDE stands for integrated
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    I'm pretty sure "integrating all kind of crap into it" is the distinction between an integrated development environment and other environments for writing code, like a simple programmer's editor (though the line is somewhat fuzzy, and programmer's editors also tend to integrate all kind of stuff, and provide extension points to integrate more.)
  - pimlottc 11y ago
    Quick access to revision history is a huge aid in understanding code.
hm8 11y ago
GitHub gearing for a Microsoft acquisition OR am I reading too much?
- landr0id 11y ago
  Definitely reading into it too much.
  - astrodust 11y ago
    Given how a lot of Microsoft's competitors use GitHub, it'd be disastrous to acquire it.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
- chimeracoder 11y ago
  Probably reading too much, in this case. But since you mention it it'd make a lot of sense for Microsoft to want to buy Github. Microsoft has been doing a lot of cool stuff engineering-wise in recent years. They've released so many FOSS projects I've lost track[0]. But they still suffer from a problem of being "uncool" because of their past reputation. Which was deserved, but they've changed a lot[1]. Microsoft needs a new brand for their FOSS work, because the Microsoft brand is badly tainted in the FOSS world. Github is one of the few companies that could earn them respect in the FOSS world if they were to acquire them (and of course, not screw everything up). [0] Heck, I've literally lost track of the number of FOSS things they've released this week [1] Fifteen years ago, could you imagine Microsoft hosting a launch party for Debian? Because that's what they did this last weekend: http://openness.microsoft.com/blog/2015/04/21/microsoft-debian-8-linuxfest/ http://openness.microsoft.com/blog/2015/04/21/microsoft-debi...
  - click170 11y ago
    IMO it would tarnish Github more than it would redeem Microsoft. You don't become cool by buying the cool new gadget-of-the-week just as you don't become cool by buying a cool company. Ill be comfortable calling them cool when they've demonstrated they no longer follow Embrace Extend Extinguish but until then they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. As far as I'm concerned they realized they tried to move to fast into the extinguishing phase so they're taking a step back into the extend phase. Im not falling for it.
Dakuan 11y ago
lol even MS think that TFS is shit
robotnoises 11y ago
Cool! Forgive me, but what is the advantage of buying Github enterprise and then having it hosted in Azure? I was under the impression that most enterprise customers were interested in self hosting.
- jsmthrowaway 11y ago
  Azure is self hosting. If you have on-prem, it makes sense to host on physical gear, but most startups aren't at that phase of their lifecycle. GHE vs GitHub for me is a data lifecycle decision, and even with GHE on Azure, you have more control over your data than in public GitHub. Influencing factors can be regulatory, policy, SLA, that sort of thing. A prior employer had a blanket policy against intellectual property in a public service no matter the security, for example. GitHub has reliability issues lately as well. One practical thing I've heard is that it's really easy to accidentally make a repo public on GitHub (I agree).
  - willthames 11y ago
    Another example is the regulatory requirement for data sovereignty to ensure data remains under the data protection laws of the organisation's country. With hosted Github you have no choice - data will presumably live on mainland US. With Azure/AWS/whatever, you can host your data in the most suitable location (always worth checking the contracts though)
- tacos 11y ago
  Unified VPN (see Azure "Virtual Network" or Amazon VPC), unified offsite management, low latency deploys, restrictions your clients may impose on you wrt data security. "Self hosting" increasingly means "inside my hacked-together cloud, not yours"
- saurik 11y ago
  The software will not be randomly modified when you are least prepared to deal with productivity changes and you can avoid having to wait for GitHub to respond to outages (while with Azure you might have an SLA, or are simply running other parts of your key infrastructure there and thereby already have them as a point of failure in your workflow). I will also say that you might trust a generic computation and storage provider more than you trust a specific service to not be mining your data (for the common "I want to host it myself as I don't trust you to not steal my stuff" issue).
aceperry 11y ago
Looks like a step in the right direction, where a lot of other developers already are. When they were pushing TFS, I didn't know if it was a 'me too' kind of move, or an attempt to provide an MS proprietary solution, or what. But getting in step with a lot of other developers, and hopefully playing nice, will get them a seat at the table with all developers, instead of projecting an attitude of: the world revolves around us. MS has been making some remarkable announcements at this Build conference, and making it easier for developers to get into MS technologies as well. This is a much better approach than when Ballmer was CEO.

124 points by gjtorikian 11y ago

apalmer 11y ago

Cool, Microsoft is a beast when focused. Wonder how long it will last.

tdicola 11y ago
This announcement is from Github, not Microsoft.
- Lancey 11y ago
  I'm sure Microsoft had some part in making this happen.
perdunov 11y ago
It's almost surreal to see that one of the douchiest companies around is so radically transforming.
- nine_k 11y ago
  Maybe MS desktop OS division was sort of douche, or maybe desktop MS office is not all that innovative. OTOH, MS Research was always very cool (and they started contributing to e.g. OpenBSD many years ago), OS kernel has always been much better than a glance over win32 API shows you, and Office365 is definitely world-class. I suspect that the engineering culture in MS has always been rather good (with engineers like you and me, and many of them a good deal better); the radical transformation is probably mostly within the top management.
  - hirsin 11y ago
    The kernel is _very cool_. I get to work near it, and their description of the NT multi-headed setup helped change my mind about Microsoft engineering. e.g. the POSIX subsystem is just another NT usermode head, so it's incredibly performant.
    - perdunov 11y ago
      I wish they shipped their superb kernel as a separate product allowing third-party shells, as their UI design division has gone off the rails. Actually, I think there should be a law for making OS kernels replaceable and separate from UI shells. I have to use Windows as certain software and drivers are not available/performant enough under Linux, so I have to deal with the crazy Windows 8.1 UX.
      - tacos 11y ago
        They already do. It was NT Embedded back then and Windows Nano Server now. Believe me, they're aware of the value of that kernel. Also it's trivial to replace the UI. Minus the 5 billion dollars in R&D of course. But it's just one registry key if you want to get started on it...
    - beagle3 11y ago
      I am not up to date on the latest kernels - I last wrote an NT driver in 2002 (Win2K/XP compatible), but based on that experience I beg to differ. My no-stalgia: It was an overengineered beast at the time, with an original grand vision that wasn't performing well enough, and seemed to be fixed with duct tape. The Video Driver + GDI, originally conceived to be outside the kernel, was too slow - so it was moved back in, causing a lot of problems. The IO subsystem was nicely abstracted with IRPs. Except it was too slow, so they added the "FastPath" interface, which fixed the speed but made it impossible to safely unload or stack drivers. IIRC, they were the main reason for the "PlugFest" parties, where microsoft would invite vendors to come to place and then install their drivers in random orders and to debug the collisions -- the fact that microsoft needed to organize these parties is an indication of how bad it was. The POSIX subsystem was removed in XP/Server 2002. Perhaps you mean SFU? That was discontinued in 2004. Oh, you mean SUA (nee Interix). Well, that was removed in 8.1. And your experience might be different, but "incredibly performant" is quite the opposite of my experience with the POSIX subsystem.
      - hirsin 11y ago
        You certainly work(ed) closer than I do, my experiences are mostly based off of what I see around me. I assume the kernel has changed quite a bit since Vista. I imagine that the POSIX system hasn't been entirely killed off quite yet, given it's already come back twice.

ripberge 11y ago

I guess the biggest functionality here is the ability to create repositories easier from within VS? Because Visual Studio already has very good integration with git. I probably only use git from the command line once every couple of months.

mariusmg 11y ago
Yeah, not sure about this either. What's exactly the point in having that Github UI in VS ? A IDE is for writing code not integrating all kind of crap into it......
- doctoboggan 11y ago
  > A IDE is for writing code not integrating all kind of crap into it...... The "I" in IDE stands for integrated
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  I'm pretty sure "integrating all kind of crap into it" is the distinction between an integrated development environment and other environments for writing code, like a simple programmer's editor (though the line is somewhat fuzzy, and programmer's editors also tend to integrate all kind of stuff, and provide extension points to integrate more.)
- pimlottc 11y ago
  Quick access to revision history is a huge aid in understanding code.

hm8 11y ago

GitHub gearing for a Microsoft acquisition OR am I reading too much?

landr0id 11y ago
Definitely reading into it too much.
- astrodust 11y ago
  Given how a lot of Microsoft's competitors use GitHub, it'd be disastrous to acquire it.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
chimeracoder 11y ago
Probably reading too much, in this case. But since you mention it it'd make a lot of sense for Microsoft to want to buy Github. Microsoft has been doing a lot of cool stuff engineering-wise in recent years. They've released so many FOSS projects I've lost track[0]. But they still suffer from a problem of being "uncool" because of their past reputation. Which was deserved, but they've changed a lot[1]. Microsoft needs a new brand for their FOSS work, because the Microsoft brand is badly tainted in the FOSS world. Github is one of the few companies that could earn them respect in the FOSS world if they were to acquire them (and of course, not screw everything up). [0] Heck, I've literally lost track of the number of FOSS things they've released this week [1] Fifteen years ago, could you imagine Microsoft hosting a launch party for Debian? Because that's what they did this last weekend: http://openness.microsoft.com/blog/2015/04/21/microsoft-debian-8-linuxfest/ http://openness.microsoft.com/blog/2015/04/21/microsoft-debi...
- click170 11y ago
  IMO it would tarnish Github more than it would redeem Microsoft. You don't become cool by buying the cool new gadget-of-the-week just as you don't become cool by buying a cool company. Ill be comfortable calling them cool when they've demonstrated they no longer follow Embrace Extend Extinguish but until then they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. As far as I'm concerned they realized they tried to move to fast into the extinguishing phase so they're taking a step back into the extend phase. Im not falling for it.

Dakuan 11y ago

lol even MS think that TFS is shit

robotnoises 11y ago

Cool! Forgive me, but what is the advantage of buying Github enterprise and then having it hosted in Azure? I was under the impression that most enterprise customers were interested in self hosting.

jsmthrowaway 11y ago
Azure is self hosting. If you have on-prem, it makes sense to host on physical gear, but most startups aren't at that phase of their lifecycle. GHE vs GitHub for me is a data lifecycle decision, and even with GHE on Azure, you have more control over your data than in public GitHub. Influencing factors can be regulatory, policy, SLA, that sort of thing. A prior employer had a blanket policy against intellectual property in a public service no matter the security, for example. GitHub has reliability issues lately as well. One practical thing I've heard is that it's really easy to accidentally make a repo public on GitHub (I agree).
- willthames 11y ago
  Another example is the regulatory requirement for data sovereignty to ensure data remains under the data protection laws of the organisation's country. With hosted Github you have no choice - data will presumably live on mainland US. With Azure/AWS/whatever, you can host your data in the most suitable location (always worth checking the contracts though)
tacos 11y ago
Unified VPN (see Azure "Virtual Network" or Amazon VPC), unified offsite management, low latency deploys, restrictions your clients may impose on you wrt data security. "Self hosting" increasingly means "inside my hacked-together cloud, not yours"
saurik 11y ago
The software will not be randomly modified when you are least prepared to deal with productivity changes and you can avoid having to wait for GitHub to respond to outages (while with Azure you might have an SLA, or are simply running other parts of your key infrastructure there and thereby already have them as a point of failure in your workflow). I will also say that you might trust a generic computation and storage provider more than you trust a specific service to not be mining your data (for the common "I want to host it myself as I don't trust you to not steal my stuff" issue).

aceperry 11y ago

Looks like a step in the right direction, where a lot of other developers already are. When they were pushing TFS, I didn't know if it was a 'me too' kind of move, or an attempt to provide an MS proprietary solution, or what. But getting in step with a lot of other developers, and hopefully playing nice, will get them a seat at the table with all developers, instead of projecting an attitude of: the world revolves around us. MS has been making some remarkable announcements at this Build conference, and making it easier for developers to get into MS technologies as well. This is a much better approach than when Ballmer was CEO.