6 ms·

When there's no one left to talk to: a guide to endangered languages

30 points by Mclhuman 12y ago

realusername 12y ago
I've witnessed the death of a language with my own eyes. My father still speaks the local dialect but I don't and nobody of my age does. I just know a few words of it. It's really sad to see the death of a language, when a language dies, everything dies with it, the spirit of a culture dies. And most of these languages are not even recorded anywhere, there is just no trace of it. (that's also the case of the dialect I'm talking about). However, a language rarely dies completely. Even if the next generations are not speaking it anymore, some words remains when the concept the word is describing does not exist in the new language, some traces are still there.
- iagooar 12y ago
  I don't want you to see this as a personal attack, but isn't it your father's fault not having taught you to speak this "dialect" (which, I guess, is a language called despectively a dialect)?
  - d4mi3n 12y ago
    Blaming people contributes to this discussion how?
    - XaspR8d 12y ago
      Well I'm not sure of iagooar's intent, but there is an important distinction here that only community members have the actually power to save a language. It isn't their 'fault' by any means because they have to balance the conformative expectations of the larger (usually oppressive) society with the desire to keep their culture alive, and none of us can really say which is the 'right' choice. The important battleground here is misinformation. A lot of people think teaching their children a native language will impede them from learning the matrix language, but tons of evidence shows that this is not the case. Bilinguals might think slightly differently than monolinguals, but on most tests they actually perform above average. If we could make sure they know that, and provide resources to record media and train educators directly in the communities, a lot more languages would survive.
    - iagooar 12y ago
      I don't want to blame anyone, that wasn't my intent. But how do I express my opinion, that passing a language from parents to children is the best way of preserving an endagered language? I ask myself how is your "grumpy" post contributing to this discussion?
  - realusername 12y ago
    It's indeed part of the problem. It's clearly a chicken and egg problem, because it was already engendered at the time, he did not think it would be useful (and it was already a bit out of fashion). But yes I agree. I call it a dialect myself because it relies at least 20% on french (I'm french myself). But after all, I'm not a linguist, they might disagree with the appellation. Maybe it would be a good think to document it I guess, for future purpose.
    - noblethrasher 12y ago
      > I call it a dialect myself because it relies at least 20% on french "A language is a dialect with an army and navy" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an_army_and_navy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an...
  - jeorgun 12y ago
    My father tried quite hard to teach me and my brother Turkish when we were young. It's lucky Turkish isn't in any sense an endangered language, because today between us we know exactly zero words of Turkish. It's not exactly a foolproof process.
iagooar 12y ago
I am a person who, as a polyglot, feels a lot of passion for languages, and can get really upset when I hear about languages that are dying. Guess you could compare the feeling with those of animal species getting extinct. I often ask myself if I, as a programmer, could contribute to helping preserve at least some information about that of dying languages, or even prevent them getting extinct at all? Any ideas?
- walterbell 12y ago
  How about organizing an effort to collect entries like the ones in Untranslatables, for endangered languages? This could be done as a CC-licensed dictionary with source on github. A markdown template would be useful, and a way to collect all submissions into a nicely typeset PDF. http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Untranslatables-Philosophical-Translation-Transnation/dp/0691138702 http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Untranslatables-Philosophic...
  - XaspR8d 12y ago
    Google partnered with several research foundations to back http://www.endangeredlanguages.com/ http://www.endangeredlanguages.com/ It's not as specific as a dictionary, but it does provide a simple way to find particular languages and upload source material for them.
- BjoernKW 12y ago
  Researching and preserving endangered languages for posterity is mostly field work. For the most part, hardly any online records (apart from those collected by researchers) exist. It's very interesting work because documenting endangered languages means studying them in their 'natural habitat'. It's probably as Indiana Jones as a linguist's work can be. That said, computational linguistics and especially statistical language models (HMMs etc.) are very useful for finding and describing distinctive language features once the data has been retrieved in the field. This is an area of expertise you might get involved in.
analyst74 12y ago
Languages were invented as means of communication, so if all languages disappear except one it'll be tremendous boost to humanity. But once you link disappearance of language with words like endangered, dying, extinct, all of sudden it sounds terrible. Power of the words.
- intopieces 12y ago
  Replace "language" with "race" in that sentiment and you'll understand how dangerous your sentiment is. Languages are not mere vessels for communication. They also hold within them cultural histories and ways of thinking. To want all of them eradicated but one is to proclaim one language "superior" to all.
  - skj 12y ago
    "race" is just how humanity likes to self-segregate. "language" is a tool used to communicate, and it would be wonderful if any two arbitrary people could successfully communicate.
    - intopieces 12y ago
      Luckily, we have technology that helps us translate between languages almost instantly. This allows people to communicate without completely eradicating an aspect of their cultural identity.
      - skj 12y ago
        I look forward to the future where this is done in a way that 'normal' people can actually use in a day-to-day setting :)
- realusername 12y ago
  There is so much more than communication inside a language, it carries a whole culture. If you only know English, I would advise you to learn another language, you will understand.
- 12y ago
walterbell 12y ago
There a PBS documentary on deciphering the glyphs of the lost Mayan language, which has been so valuable to the history of the Mayan people that they began teaching the lost language in schools: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5ppfC6y-5s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5ppfC6y-5s There's also a corresponding book, Breaking the Maya Code, http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Maya-Code-Third-Michael/dp/0500289557/ http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Maya-Code-Third-Michael/dp/05...
Htsthbjig 12y ago
Good riddance. When I have traveled the world I got to the conclusion that the main problem of the world is people speaking different languages. Americans, or Japanese or Chinese believing whatever their media trows at them only happens because those people do not understand the rest of the languages of the world. Those countries are so big, the people living there believe they don't need other languages in order to live, so they live in their own bubble. For Americans it gets compounded because they also believe the world should learn their language and not the other way around. Languages are the main cause of conflict in the world today as without understanding them you are at the mercy of other people's interest. The person that yesterday was a friend, today could become an enemy just because media tells you so(because it is in their own interest). It is very hard for media to do that when people could actually travel their selves and understand reality talking to the people that supposedly hates them without intermediaries. People have the natural tendency to fear what they don't know about, and this could be used against them in order to justify mass surveillance, emergency measures, also called "total control of the ruling's elite". This was said by Goering in Nuremberg: "the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." Not different today. War is created by media. Living in a language bubble is dangerous. Most of the languages that are going to disappear are not that different from others that will survive. People that live near other people copy the best thing their neighbor has.
- Dewie3 12y ago
  Damn - if only programmers ruled the world, there could be world peace. Imagine a world of total conformance and homogeneity, identity stripped away in the name of standardization and streamlining. Finally, we would all understand each other... surely... Viva la programmacion!..
  - analyst74 12y ago
    What carries culture is people, not the language they speak. Do all English speaking people think the same and have no identity? We humans are very good at both forming groups as well as self-segregation. There will never be total conformance and homogeneity. If you think certain group of people fall into that category, that's because your own lack of understanding of them rather than them being the same. In fact, if we all spoke the same language, there will actually be more understanding and less perceived sameness or difference.
droidist2 12y ago
I wonder if when one's language dies out enough then it becomes incredibly hard to learn a new language since there are no resources to learn the new language using your original language.

30 points by Mclhuman 12y ago

I've witnessed the death of a language with my own eyes. My father still speaks the local dialect but I don't and nobody of my age does. I just know a few words of it. It's really sad to see the death of a language, when a language dies, everything dies with it, the spirit of a culture dies. And most of these languages are not even recorded anywhere, there is just no trace of it. (that's also the case of the dialect I'm talking about). However, a language rarely dies completely. Even if the next generations are not speaking it anymore, some words remains when the concept the word is describing does not exist in the new language, some traces are still there.

iagooar 12y ago
I don't want you to see this as a personal attack, but isn't it your father's fault not having taught you to speak this "dialect" (which, I guess, is a language called despectively a dialect)?
- d4mi3n 12y ago
  Blaming people contributes to this discussion how?
  - XaspR8d 12y ago
    Well I'm not sure of iagooar's intent, but there is an important distinction here that only community members have the actually power to save a language. It isn't their 'fault' by any means because they have to balance the conformative expectations of the larger (usually oppressive) society with the desire to keep their culture alive, and none of us can really say which is the 'right' choice. The important battleground here is misinformation. A lot of people think teaching their children a native language will impede them from learning the matrix language, but tons of evidence shows that this is not the case. Bilinguals might think slightly differently than monolinguals, but on most tests they actually perform above average. If we could make sure they know that, and provide resources to record media and train educators directly in the communities, a lot more languages would survive.
  - iagooar 12y ago
    I don't want to blame anyone, that wasn't my intent. But how do I express my opinion, that passing a language from parents to children is the best way of preserving an endagered language? I ask myself how is your "grumpy" post contributing to this discussion?
- realusername 12y ago
  It's indeed part of the problem. It's clearly a chicken and egg problem, because it was already engendered at the time, he did not think it would be useful (and it was already a bit out of fashion). But yes I agree. I call it a dialect myself because it relies at least 20% on french (I'm french myself). But after all, I'm not a linguist, they might disagree with the appellation. Maybe it would be a good think to document it I guess, for future purpose.
  - noblethrasher 12y ago
    > I call it a dialect myself because it relies at least 20% on french "A language is a dialect with an army and navy" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an_army_and_navy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an...
- jeorgun 12y ago
  My father tried quite hard to teach me and my brother Turkish when we were young. It's lucky Turkish isn't in any sense an endangered language, because today between us we know exactly zero words of Turkish. It's not exactly a foolproof process.

iagooar 12y ago

I am a person who, as a polyglot, feels a lot of passion for languages, and can get really upset when I hear about languages that are dying. Guess you could compare the feeling with those of animal species getting extinct. I often ask myself if I, as a programmer, could contribute to helping preserve at least some information about that of dying languages, or even prevent them getting extinct at all? Any ideas?

walterbell 12y ago
How about organizing an effort to collect entries like the ones in Untranslatables, for endangered languages? This could be done as a CC-licensed dictionary with source on github. A markdown template would be useful, and a way to collect all submissions into a nicely typeset PDF. http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Untranslatables-Philosophical-Translation-Transnation/dp/0691138702 http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Untranslatables-Philosophic...
- XaspR8d 12y ago
  Google partnered with several research foundations to back http://www.endangeredlanguages.com/ http://www.endangeredlanguages.com/ It's not as specific as a dictionary, but it does provide a simple way to find particular languages and upload source material for them.
BjoernKW 12y ago
Researching and preserving endangered languages for posterity is mostly field work. For the most part, hardly any online records (apart from those collected by researchers) exist. It's very interesting work because documenting endangered languages means studying them in their 'natural habitat'. It's probably as Indiana Jones as a linguist's work can be. That said, computational linguistics and especially statistical language models (HMMs etc.) are very useful for finding and describing distinctive language features once the data has been retrieved in the field. This is an area of expertise you might get involved in.

analyst74 12y ago

Languages were invented as means of communication, so if all languages disappear except one it'll be tremendous boost to humanity. But once you link disappearance of language with words like endangered, dying, extinct, all of sudden it sounds terrible. Power of the words.

intopieces 12y ago
Replace "language" with "race" in that sentiment and you'll understand how dangerous your sentiment is. Languages are not mere vessels for communication. They also hold within them cultural histories and ways of thinking. To want all of them eradicated but one is to proclaim one language "superior" to all.
- skj 12y ago
  "race" is just how humanity likes to self-segregate. "language" is a tool used to communicate, and it would be wonderful if any two arbitrary people could successfully communicate.
  - intopieces 12y ago
    Luckily, we have technology that helps us translate between languages almost instantly. This allows people to communicate without completely eradicating an aspect of their cultural identity.
    - skj 12y ago
      I look forward to the future where this is done in a way that 'normal' people can actually use in a day-to-day setting :)
realusername 12y ago
There is so much more than communication inside a language, it carries a whole culture. If you only know English, I would advise you to learn another language, you will understand.
12y ago

walterbell 12y ago

There a PBS documentary on deciphering the glyphs of the lost Mayan language, which has been so valuable to the history of the Mayan people that they began teaching the lost language in schools: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5ppfC6y-5s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5ppfC6y-5s There's also a corresponding book, Breaking the Maya Code, http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Maya-Code-Third-Michael/dp/0500289557/ http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Maya-Code-Third-Michael/dp/05...

Htsthbjig 12y ago

Good riddance. When I have traveled the world I got to the conclusion that the main problem of the world is people speaking different languages. Americans, or Japanese or Chinese believing whatever their media trows at them only happens because those people do not understand the rest of the languages of the world. Those countries are so big, the people living there believe they don't need other languages in order to live, so they live in their own bubble. For Americans it gets compounded because they also believe the world should learn their language and not the other way around. Languages are the main cause of conflict in the world today as without understanding them you are at the mercy of other people's interest. The person that yesterday was a friend, today could become an enemy just because media tells you so(because it is in their own interest). It is very hard for media to do that when people could actually travel their selves and understand reality talking to the people that supposedly hates them without intermediaries. People have the natural tendency to fear what they don't know about, and this could be used against them in order to justify mass surveillance, emergency measures, also called "total control of the ruling's elite". This was said by Goering in Nuremberg: "the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." Not different today. War is created by media. Living in a language bubble is dangerous. Most of the languages that are going to disappear are not that different from others that will survive. People that live near other people copy the best thing their neighbor has.

Dewie3 12y ago
Damn - if only programmers ruled the world, there could be world peace. Imagine a world of total conformance and homogeneity, identity stripped away in the name of standardization and streamlining. Finally, we would all understand each other... surely... Viva la programmacion!..
- analyst74 12y ago
  What carries culture is people, not the language they speak. Do all English speaking people think the same and have no identity? We humans are very good at both forming groups as well as self-segregation. There will never be total conformance and homogeneity. If you think certain group of people fall into that category, that's because your own lack of understanding of them rather than them being the same. In fact, if we all spoke the same language, there will actually be more understanding and less perceived sameness or difference.

droidist2 12y ago

I wonder if when one's language dies out enough then it becomes incredibly hard to learn a new language since there are no resources to learn the new language using your original language.