3 ms·

It's not meant to replace the open source perspective of Arduino, it's meant to complement it. It's a good thing, not a bad one.

0x006A 11y ago
From all we know its the classical Microsoft strategy: Embrace, extend, and extinguish. Remind me, why is this different this time?
- castell 11y ago
  Everyone should read Bill Gates' infamous memo Windows: The Next Killer Application on the Internet (January 1994): http://www.microsoft.com/about/companyinformation/timeline/timeline/docs/di_killerapp_InternetMemo.rtf http://www.microsoft.com/about/companyinformation/timeline/t... Some notes: The Marvel product turned out to be The Microsoft Network (short MSN v1, not to be confused with later iterations of MSN web services): http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2306,00.html http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2306,00.h... . The Cairo operating system (aka Win96) was never released: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_(operating_system) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_(operating_system)
- joshvm 11y ago
  Rather difficult to extinguish an open source project that in no way depends on Microsoft. The most annoying thing they could do is unsign the drivers somehow (difficult, since programming is done over a generic FTDI chip or directly in the case of the Mega32U4) and force people to develop using a different platform. I suppose if everyone hopped on the Windows bandwagon and then Microsoft pulled their project, it would be an issue. For instance if suddenly you no longer had access to the services, but that's not really a killer. You can buy Arduino clones from China - I've never paid the 'official' Arduino or Sparkfun mark up. You can make your own minimalistic board since the bootloader is freely available. You could even go barebones and learn to code for AVR chips without Arduino getting in the way (it's cheaper and leaner). Worst case everyone runs to OS X and Linux.
  - castell 11y ago
    > extinguish an open source project Open source? Windows IoT requires Visual Studio and Windows (Windows Remote Arduino is a WinRT (WinRunTime) component). http://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/Software http://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/Software
    - joshvm 11y ago
      I interpreted the extinguishing part as getting rid of Arduino in general, not whether Microsoft pulls support for their IoT platform.
  - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
    >Rather difficult to extinguish an open source project that in no way depends on Microsoft. ahem, There was a court case about this sort of thing, U.S. v. Microsoft. Java wasn't open source, yet but I still think it is relevant to your first comment. The issue is not what MS can do to Arduino, but what MS can do that causes trouble for people on other OS platforms. I'm not proposing that this is an MS strategy, but that sort of thing is not unprecedented in MS' past, so it's not unreasonable that some might be skeptical of MS' intentions. In reality, the open source hardware hobbyist movement is so small that it defies good sense to think it could be a critical part of a MS dirty tricks campaign. OTOH, maybe MS is really bullish for the IoT. >You can buy Arduino clones from China - I've never paid the 'official' Arduino or Sparkfun mark up. Good for you! > You can make your own minimalistic board since the bootloader is freely available. You're right in that the bootloader is a big part of the magic here. A freely available bootloader, and a barely-passable IDE (that runs on any platform) are the two things that set Arduino apart from all of the other similarly capable kits that came before it. If you appreciate the bootloader, you might consider paying the "'official' Arduino markup" at least once. >You could even go barebones and learn to code for AVR chips without Arduino getting in the way (it's cheaper and leaner). You could, but it's not cheaper, since you'll need an AVRISP, or something similar, you'll also need to spend a lot of time learning about microprocessor minutiae before you ever get to anything interesting. No, worst case is more like Arduino focuses on MSVS interoperability and sort of abandons the cross-platform IDE; but it wouldn't make much difference now anyway. I hope it turns out well and ends up introducing more people to open source hardware; and I doubt it will cause anyone to adopt Windows over Linux or OSX.
hueving 11y ago
How is that good?
- d_luaz 11y ago
  How is it bad?
  - bottled_poe 11y ago
    That is not a good counter-argument. Anyone can do something that is not worthwhile.
    - d_luaz 11y ago
      The author did mentioned "it's meant to complement it", I assume that is good: use if if you like it, ignore it if you don't. I guess the opinion of "not worthwhile" doesn't constitute good or bad either for the Ardruino community.
  - spiritplumber 11y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish
    - d_luaz 11y ago
      Assuming M$ is always evil is still a personal opinion, doesn't mean it's bad. Replace M$ with Google, Apple, Amazon or any other company doing the same thing, does it actually bring out any meaningful conclusion? I assume better Ardruino support on Windows is a good thing.
      - spiritplumber 11y ago
        Going from past data, though.... Arduino on Windows so far works pretty well as-is.
69_years_and 11y ago
Yes it's a good thing (for the tinkerers of this world) and I suspect its a long term view for MS. If young tinkerers can tinker away on some of the cool hardware out there leveraging MS products/tools for free (in the same way they can using linux tools) then in the future maybe some of those young folk will bring to this world some awesome startups also using the MS tool chains, a chain they may well be prepared to exchange cash for - but certinally a chain they will be familiar with. Of course those not happy with that can fork the Arduino and its tool's - as far as I know they are all open. Of course it may lead nowhere MS and they may well drop it when the return does not pan out. My 2 cents...
- mauricemir 11y ago
  Yes given the relatively small amount of space on ardunio using VS to write code for them seems over kill.
  - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
    Integrating the Arduino firmware with a Windows GUI app will be a lot easier if the firmware was generated from within MSVS. I could imagine automatically generated bindings to hardware functions. I can also imagine an automatic custom "device driver" generator; and then maybe an all-in-one installer roller thing. There are some pretty cool possibilities.

0x006A 11y ago

From all we know its the classical Microsoft strategy: Embrace, extend, and extinguish. Remind me, why is this different this time?

castell 11y ago
Everyone should read Bill Gates' infamous memo Windows: The Next Killer Application on the Internet (January 1994): http://www.microsoft.com/about/companyinformation/timeline/timeline/docs/di_killerapp_InternetMemo.rtf http://www.microsoft.com/about/companyinformation/timeline/t... Some notes: The Marvel product turned out to be The Microsoft Network (short MSN v1, not to be confused with later iterations of MSN web services): http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2306,00.html http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2306,00.h... . The Cairo operating system (aka Win96) was never released: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_(operating_system) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_(operating_system)
joshvm 11y ago
Rather difficult to extinguish an open source project that in no way depends on Microsoft. The most annoying thing they could do is unsign the drivers somehow (difficult, since programming is done over a generic FTDI chip or directly in the case of the Mega32U4) and force people to develop using a different platform. I suppose if everyone hopped on the Windows bandwagon and then Microsoft pulled their project, it would be an issue. For instance if suddenly you no longer had access to the services, but that's not really a killer. You can buy Arduino clones from China - I've never paid the 'official' Arduino or Sparkfun mark up. You can make your own minimalistic board since the bootloader is freely available. You could even go barebones and learn to code for AVR chips without Arduino getting in the way (it's cheaper and leaner). Worst case everyone runs to OS X and Linux.
- castell 11y ago
  > extinguish an open source project Open source? Windows IoT requires Visual Studio and Windows (Windows Remote Arduino is a WinRT (WinRunTime) component). http://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/Software http://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/Software
  - joshvm 11y ago
    I interpreted the extinguishing part as getting rid of Arduino in general, not whether Microsoft pulls support for their IoT platform.
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  >Rather difficult to extinguish an open source project that in no way depends on Microsoft. ahem, There was a court case about this sort of thing, U.S. v. Microsoft. Java wasn't open source, yet but I still think it is relevant to your first comment. The issue is not what MS can do to Arduino, but what MS can do that causes trouble for people on other OS platforms. I'm not proposing that this is an MS strategy, but that sort of thing is not unprecedented in MS' past, so it's not unreasonable that some might be skeptical of MS' intentions. In reality, the open source hardware hobbyist movement is so small that it defies good sense to think it could be a critical part of a MS dirty tricks campaign. OTOH, maybe MS is really bullish for the IoT. >You can buy Arduino clones from China - I've never paid the 'official' Arduino or Sparkfun mark up. Good for you! > You can make your own minimalistic board since the bootloader is freely available. You're right in that the bootloader is a big part of the magic here. A freely available bootloader, and a barely-passable IDE (that runs on any platform) are the two things that set Arduino apart from all of the other similarly capable kits that came before it. If you appreciate the bootloader, you might consider paying the "'official' Arduino markup" at least once. >You could even go barebones and learn to code for AVR chips without Arduino getting in the way (it's cheaper and leaner). You could, but it's not cheaper, since you'll need an AVRISP, or something similar, you'll also need to spend a lot of time learning about microprocessor minutiae before you ever get to anything interesting. No, worst case is more like Arduino focuses on MSVS interoperability and sort of abandons the cross-platform IDE; but it wouldn't make much difference now anyway. I hope it turns out well and ends up introducing more people to open source hardware; and I doubt it will cause anyone to adopt Windows over Linux or OSX.

hueving 11y ago

How is that good?

d_luaz 11y ago
How is it bad?
- bottled_poe 11y ago
  That is not a good counter-argument. Anyone can do something that is not worthwhile.
  - d_luaz 11y ago
    The author did mentioned "it's meant to complement it", I assume that is good: use if if you like it, ignore it if you don't. I guess the opinion of "not worthwhile" doesn't constitute good or bad either for the Ardruino community.
- spiritplumber 11y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish
  - d_luaz 11y ago
    Assuming M$ is always evil is still a personal opinion, doesn't mean it's bad. Replace M$ with Google, Apple, Amazon or any other company doing the same thing, does it actually bring out any meaningful conclusion? I assume better Ardruino support on Windows is a good thing.
    - spiritplumber 11y ago
      Going from past data, though.... Arduino on Windows so far works pretty well as-is.

69_years_and 11y ago

Yes it's a good thing (for the tinkerers of this world) and I suspect its a long term view for MS. If young tinkerers can tinker away on some of the cool hardware out there leveraging MS products/tools for free (in the same way they can using linux tools) then in the future maybe some of those young folk will bring to this world some awesome startups also using the MS tool chains, a chain they may well be prepared to exchange cash for - but certinally a chain they will be familiar with. Of course those not happy with that can fork the Arduino and its tool's - as far as I know they are all open. Of course it may lead nowhere MS and they may well drop it when the return does not pan out. My 2 cents...

mauricemir 11y ago
Yes given the relatively small amount of space on ardunio using VS to write code for them seems over kill.
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  Integrating the Arduino firmware with a Windows GUI app will be a lot easier if the firmware was generated from within MSVS. I could imagine automatically generated bindings to hardware functions. I can also imagine an automatic custom "device driver" generator; and then maybe an all-in-one installer roller thing. There are some pretty cool possibilities.