4 ms·

If the job market is really that, a market, then it should not come as a surprise. It's the imbalance between the number the people seeking a kind of job and th

by Xixi 11y ago

If the job market is really that, a market, then it should not come as a surprise. It's the imbalance between the number the people seeking a kind of job and the number of jobs available that drives the salaries all the way down to minimum wage. Hence the lowest paying of all jobs are the most fiercely fought for. Now of course there is another side to this equation: the remuneration is capped by the (perceived) value derived from the work done.

nilkn 11y ago
I'm not surprised that this could happen. I'm surprised that it has happened. The fact that anyone could have a great life with mostly any job in the US is what catapulted it to fame in the mid to late 1900s as the world's richest country. Now we're back to the point where minimum wage jobs are poverty level at best and significantly below poverty at worst. To really put this into perspective, I know families who have immigrated here from Mexico who actually regret it because they didn't realize how low the standard of living is for minimum wage jobs.
- Xixi 11y ago
  Note that I was only pointing out that there is some logic to the lowest paying jobs seeing the most candidates. I certainly do not condone a system where workers do not have access to proper health-care and struggle to live decently. For that matter I think that even unemployed people should have access to health-care and live decently. I will refrain from commenting on how tragic the situation is in the United States for the simple reason that I don't live there. But your description of the situation doesn't make me want to move there except for a very cushy job. Here in Japan unemployment is quite low, and health-care is nationalized, so the situation may not be as dramatic as the one you describe. But contractors at low paying jobs certainly hold the shitty end of the stick: all my friends in this situation live with their parents, they simply cannot afford to live alone.
crpatino 11y ago
> Hence the lowest paying of all jobs are the most fiercely fought for. That does not sound like a healthy economy to me. Minimum wage is for employees with minimal skills. Almost always that should mean entry level positions. You don't want to run a business where the bulk of your workforce is barely qualified. You want a balance between the noobs, the competent young ones, and the old dogs who know all the ropes. So even if for a position that has an "imbalance between the number of job seekers and the available positions", I would expect the average employee to make somewhere between 2x and 4x the minimum wage. Otherwise, what you are telling me is that an average high school kid can do the job equally well as a person with 10+ years of experience.
- bryondowd 11y ago
  The fact is that many jobs are exactly as you describe. An average high school kid can be trained to do the job within a week and perform at least 90% as well as someone who's been doing it for 10 years. That's why those jobs pay minimum wage. You want almost all your employees to be like this, and maybe one person with experience in a marginally higher position to handle unusual cases. For instance, a clothing store pays a number of people minimum wage to work the registers, keep the racks/shelves stocked and organized, and clean the place. Then they pay (not substantially) more for a few managers to keep things running smoothly. Usually there are many more employees than managers, and while an employee might be promoted to manager, there are so few openings that the average employee can't expect to rise at all. There's no reason to give these people any significant raise because they can be replaced in a week with another kid at minimum wage. The only incentive to pay a little bit more for someone who sticks around long term is because they tend to be more reliable in terms of showing up for their scheduled shift, but even that isn't uncommon enough to be worth much. It's the same for any position that doesn't require a developed skill. Stocking shelves, unloading trucks, cashiers, cleaners, some basic customer service positions like a host(ess) at a cheap restaurant (the people who greet you at the door and show you to your seat for $8/hour). I would guess that there are at least in the tens of millions of these positions in the US, so probably at least 5-10% of the population. Some of these are students who will rise out of it by getting a degree and landing an entry level position elsewhere, but I doubt that covers the majority. And people will fight over these jobs, simply because they don't have skills to get a better one, and need to either work 2-3 jobs at once to get by, or pool their resources and live in a group with a number of other people who work the same jobs or only slightly better. Here's some examples [1][2] that cover a small group of the described jobs. This accounts for a bit under 8 millions jobs. The site there isn't granular enough to get many other positions, as they are lumped in with others that earn more, like "Hand Laborers" which has a median income a couple dollars higher and adds a few million more jobs. [1] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/cashiers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/cashiers.htm [2] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/food-preparation-and-serving/food-and-beverage-serving-and-related-workers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/food-preparation-and-serving/food-and... [3] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/hand-laborers-and-material-movers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/ha... NOTE: I'm not saying any of this is right, or good, or the way it should be or has to be, just that this is the way things are.

by Xixi 11y ago

nilkn 11y ago

I'm not surprised that this could happen. I'm surprised that it has happened. The fact that anyone could have a great life with mostly any job in the US is what catapulted it to fame in the mid to late 1900s as the world's richest country. Now we're back to the point where minimum wage jobs are poverty level at best and significantly below poverty at worst. To really put this into perspective, I know families who have immigrated here from Mexico who actually regret it because they didn't realize how low the standard of living is for minimum wage jobs.

Xixi 11y ago
Note that I was only pointing out that there is some logic to the lowest paying jobs seeing the most candidates. I certainly do not condone a system where workers do not have access to proper health-care and struggle to live decently. For that matter I think that even unemployed people should have access to health-care and live decently. I will refrain from commenting on how tragic the situation is in the United States for the simple reason that I don't live there. But your description of the situation doesn't make me want to move there except for a very cushy job. Here in Japan unemployment is quite low, and health-care is nationalized, so the situation may not be as dramatic as the one you describe. But contractors at low paying jobs certainly hold the shitty end of the stick: all my friends in this situation live with their parents, they simply cannot afford to live alone.

crpatino 11y ago

> Hence the lowest paying of all jobs are the most fiercely fought for. That does not sound like a healthy economy to me. Minimum wage is for employees with minimal skills. Almost always that should mean entry level positions. You don't want to run a business where the bulk of your workforce is barely qualified. You want a balance between the noobs, the competent young ones, and the old dogs who know all the ropes. So even if for a position that has an "imbalance between the number of job seekers and the available positions", I would expect the average employee to make somewhere between 2x and 4x the minimum wage. Otherwise, what you are telling me is that an average high school kid can do the job equally well as a person with 10+ years of experience.

bryondowd 11y ago
The fact is that many jobs are exactly as you describe. An average high school kid can be trained to do the job within a week and perform at least 90% as well as someone who's been doing it for 10 years. That's why those jobs pay minimum wage. You want almost all your employees to be like this, and maybe one person with experience in a marginally higher position to handle unusual cases. For instance, a clothing store pays a number of people minimum wage to work the registers, keep the racks/shelves stocked and organized, and clean the place. Then they pay (not substantially) more for a few managers to keep things running smoothly. Usually there are many more employees than managers, and while an employee might be promoted to manager, there are so few openings that the average employee can't expect to rise at all. There's no reason to give these people any significant raise because they can be replaced in a week with another kid at minimum wage. The only incentive to pay a little bit more for someone who sticks around long term is because they tend to be more reliable in terms of showing up for their scheduled shift, but even that isn't uncommon enough to be worth much. It's the same for any position that doesn't require a developed skill. Stocking shelves, unloading trucks, cashiers, cleaners, some basic customer service positions like a host(ess) at a cheap restaurant (the people who greet you at the door and show you to your seat for $8/hour). I would guess that there are at least in the tens of millions of these positions in the US, so probably at least 5-10% of the population. Some of these are students who will rise out of it by getting a degree and landing an entry level position elsewhere, but I doubt that covers the majority. And people will fight over these jobs, simply because they don't have skills to get a better one, and need to either work 2-3 jobs at once to get by, or pool their resources and live in a group with a number of other people who work the same jobs or only slightly better. Here's some examples [1][2] that cover a small group of the described jobs. This accounts for a bit under 8 millions jobs. The site there isn't granular enough to get many other positions, as they are lumped in with others that earn more, like "Hand Laborers" which has a median income a couple dollars higher and adds a few million more jobs. [1] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/cashiers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/cashiers.htm [2] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/food-preparation-and-serving/food-and-beverage-serving-and-related-workers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/food-preparation-and-serving/food-and... [3] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/hand-laborers-and-material-movers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/ha... NOTE: I'm not saying any of this is right, or good, or the way it should be or has to be, just that this is the way things are.