5 ms·

Surviving on 1440 in many parts of California would not be nearly as easy as you make it sound. One wrong step (e.g., a high medical bill -- even with insurance

by nmrm2 11y ago

Surviving on 1440 in many parts of California would not be nearly as easy as you make it sound. One wrong step (e.g., a high medical bill -- even with insurance) and you're into the endless cycle of credit card debt with no way out. (edit: I agree that uncertainty certainly doesn't help the problem.)

Swizec 11y ago
I didn't say it would be easy, but it would be plannable. And that makes a huge difference. Unexpected expenses will of course mess it up and throw you into a spiral if you don't have a buffer. But that's true at any income level. Even if you're a techie making $200k a year, but without a buffer, you will have a huge problem if something unexpected happens. Of course why you wouldn't have a buffer if you make that much money is a different problem. But hey, Mike Tyson was making millions and when the shit hit the fan, he went bankrupt in a heartbeat.
- sologoub 11y ago
  These ar two separate issues and I think the original comment makes the point that sure it will be plannable, but simply not enough. The article says as much also when it notes that this offering won't help those with insufficient overall incomes. The AU example is fascinating, because if true, it really does feel like healthier society.
- kamaal 11y ago
  >>Of course why you wouldn't have a buffer if you make that much money is a different problem. That is the problem. Even in the example of unpredictable income you gave two posts above. If you spending all the money you are earning(even if variable) just because you are earning it a little extra every month. Something is badly broken in the way you live your life. You are essentially not solving any problem at all, all you are doing is delaying your problems one month at a time. Someday that will blow up in your face. And when it does you will back to all the problems you had started with or may be even worse. You should never be earning to make ends meet(That only delays problems, doesn't solve them). You should be earning towards a framework which enables you to do away with working to make a living(a.k.a retirement).
- enraged_camel 11y ago
  >>Unexpected expenses will of course mess it up and throw you into a spiral if you don't have a buffer. But that's true at any income level. Not really. Minimum wage jobs rarely cover health insurance.
  - kelnos 11y ago
    Many people even in higher-wage jobs only have a high-deductible health plan. Any unexpected medical cost can cause problems for people.
  - Swizec 11y ago
    There are other unexpected expenses that can mess things up. Your home might burn down and you have to replace not only the home but all your possessions. You might get sued and have to pay lawyers and/or settlements. You might simply get divorced and spend a bunch of money on that.
ars 11y ago
> e.g., a high medical bill -- even with insurance Don't pay them. Nothing at all happens if you don't pay medical bills. Just ignore the bill collectors, don't answer the calls or even open the envelopes. New rules mean that it has no effect on your credit score.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  This is terrible advice; depending on the state, you can have your wages garnished and funds in accounts seized. Missouri debtors have even gone to jail: http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/payday-lenders-use-courts-to-create-modern-debtors-prison/article_f56ca6aa-e880-11e1-b154-0019bb30f31a.html http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/payday-lenders-use-co... http://blog.credit.com/2012/08/in-missouri-debtors-prison-is-alive-and-well-61877/ http://blog.credit.com/2012/08/in-missouri-debtors-prison-is... http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/the-new-bill-collector-tactic-jail-time.html http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/the-new-bill-collecto... Don't outright not pay your debts; negotiate with the creditors for pennies on the dollar, but advising people to straight up ignore them is extremely reckless advice.
  - ars 11y ago
    All of your links are about payday debt. I'm speaking only of medical debt. > you can have your wages garnished Only if they win in court. And in practice if you don't have any money anyway, what do you have to loose? Why go into non-medical debt to pay off medical debt? Just ignore the debt till you have some money. If you lose in court (which is unlikely) you are no worse off.
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      > Only if they win in court. And in practice if you don't have any money anyway, what do you have to loose? Why go into non-medical debt to pay off medical debt? If you don't show up in court, they win by default. Have you never heard of "summary judgement"?
      - 11y ago
dredmorbius 11y ago
You're missing the point that managing a _consistent_ income of $1440/mo is far easier than doing so for an _inconsistent_ income which averages to $1440. If your expenses don't show equal flexibility, you'll find yourself cash-strapped: hungry, utilities cut, possibly on the street. It's part of the great risk shift, creating a new social an political class, the precariat. The American Precariat http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/11/opinion/brooks-the-american-precariat.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/11/opinion/brooks-the-america... Plutonomy and the Precariat http://www.huffingtonpost.com/noam-chomsky/plutonomy-and-the-precari_b_1499246.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/noam-chomsky/plutonomy-and-the... Why the precariat is not a “bogus concept” https://www.opendemocracy.net/guy-standing/why-precariat-is-not-%E2%80%9Cbogus-concept%E2%80%9D https://www.opendemocracy.net/guy-standing/why-precariat-is-...
- nmrm2 11y ago
  > You're missing the point that managing a _consistent_ income of $1440/mo is far easier than doing so for an _inconsistent_ income which averages to $1440. I think my point was exactly that now we're just comparing degrees of impossibility.
imron 11y ago
You're also missing the other point (from the great-great-grandparent) about not just a decent minimum wage, but also universal healthcare and no crushing student debt.

by nmrm2 11y ago

Swizec 11y ago

I didn't say it would be easy, but it would be plannable. And that makes a huge difference. Unexpected expenses will of course mess it up and throw you into a spiral if you don't have a buffer. But that's true at any income level. Even if you're a techie making $200k a year, but without a buffer, you will have a huge problem if something unexpected happens. Of course why you wouldn't have a buffer if you make that much money is a different problem. But hey, Mike Tyson was making millions and when the shit hit the fan, he went bankrupt in a heartbeat.

sologoub 11y ago
These ar two separate issues and I think the original comment makes the point that sure it will be plannable, but simply not enough. The article says as much also when it notes that this offering won't help those with insufficient overall incomes. The AU example is fascinating, because if true, it really does feel like healthier society.
kamaal 11y ago
>>Of course why you wouldn't have a buffer if you make that much money is a different problem. That is the problem. Even in the example of unpredictable income you gave two posts above. If you spending all the money you are earning(even if variable) just because you are earning it a little extra every month. Something is badly broken in the way you live your life. You are essentially not solving any problem at all, all you are doing is delaying your problems one month at a time. Someday that will blow up in your face. And when it does you will back to all the problems you had started with or may be even worse. You should never be earning to make ends meet(That only delays problems, doesn't solve them). You should be earning towards a framework which enables you to do away with working to make a living(a.k.a retirement).
enraged_camel 11y ago
>>Unexpected expenses will of course mess it up and throw you into a spiral if you don't have a buffer. But that's true at any income level. Not really. Minimum wage jobs rarely cover health insurance.
- kelnos 11y ago
  Many people even in higher-wage jobs only have a high-deductible health plan. Any unexpected medical cost can cause problems for people.
- Swizec 11y ago
  There are other unexpected expenses that can mess things up. Your home might burn down and you have to replace not only the home but all your possessions. You might get sued and have to pay lawyers and/or settlements. You might simply get divorced and spend a bunch of money on that.

ars 11y ago

> e.g., a high medical bill -- even with insurance Don't pay them. Nothing at all happens if you don't pay medical bills. Just ignore the bill collectors, don't answer the calls or even open the envelopes. New rules mean that it has no effect on your credit score.

toomuchtodo 11y ago
This is terrible advice; depending on the state, you can have your wages garnished and funds in accounts seized. Missouri debtors have even gone to jail: http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/payday-lenders-use-courts-to-create-modern-debtors-prison/article_f56ca6aa-e880-11e1-b154-0019bb30f31a.html http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/payday-lenders-use-co... http://blog.credit.com/2012/08/in-missouri-debtors-prison-is-alive-and-well-61877/ http://blog.credit.com/2012/08/in-missouri-debtors-prison-is... http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/the-new-bill-collector-tactic-jail-time.html http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/the-new-bill-collecto... Don't outright not pay your debts; negotiate with the creditors for pennies on the dollar, but advising people to straight up ignore them is extremely reckless advice.
- ars 11y ago
  All of your links are about payday debt. I'm speaking only of medical debt. > you can have your wages garnished Only if they win in court. And in practice if you don't have any money anyway, what do you have to loose? Why go into non-medical debt to pay off medical debt? Just ignore the debt till you have some money. If you lose in court (which is unlikely) you are no worse off.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    > Only if they win in court. And in practice if you don't have any money anyway, what do you have to loose? Why go into non-medical debt to pay off medical debt? If you don't show up in court, they win by default. Have you never heard of "summary judgement"?
    - 11y ago

dredmorbius 11y ago

You're missing the point that managing a _consistent_ income of $1440/mo is far easier than doing so for an _inconsistent_ income which averages to $1440. If your expenses don't show equal flexibility, you'll find yourself cash-strapped: hungry, utilities cut, possibly on the street. It's part of the great risk shift, creating a new social an political class, the precariat. The American Precariat http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/11/opinion/brooks-the-american-precariat.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/11/opinion/brooks-the-america... Plutonomy and the Precariat http://www.huffingtonpost.com/noam-chomsky/plutonomy-and-the-precari_b_1499246.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/noam-chomsky/plutonomy-and-the... Why the precariat is not a “bogus concept” https://www.opendemocracy.net/guy-standing/why-precariat-is-not-%E2%80%9Cbogus-concept%E2%80%9D https://www.opendemocracy.net/guy-standing/why-precariat-is-...

nmrm2 11y ago
> You're missing the point that managing a _consistent_ income of $1440/mo is far easier than doing so for an _inconsistent_ income which averages to $1440. I think my point was exactly that now we're just comparing degrees of impossibility.

imron 11y ago

You're also missing the other point (from the great-great-grandparent) about not just a decent minimum wage, but also universal healthcare and no crushing student debt.