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Is he wrong about the GPL? It actually does what he is talking about by design. Every company which uses GPL code is very careful about how they do so. A lot wo

by serge2k 12y ago

Is he wrong about the GPL? It actually does what he is talking about by design. Every company which uses GPL code is very careful about how they do so. A lot won't touch GPLv3 because of the newer restrictions. AGPL as well.

dragonwriter 12y ago
> Is he wrong about the GPL? Yes, even if he was talking about the GPL when he said "open source software", he would be wrong. (And if he meant the GPL, he would be wrong in using the general term "open source software" in referring to it, even if his statements were accurate for the GPL.) > It actually does what he is talking about by design. No it doesn't. He says "if you use any open-source software, you have to make the rest of your software open source." You can use GPL software without making your other software GPL. You can distribute GPL software without making your other software GPL. You can distribute GPL software without making other software you distribute together with the GPL software GPL, too, in some cases. > Every company which uses GPL code is very careful about how they do so. Many of them also produce a lot of non-GPL software. Which demonstrates that the "all your other software" claim is false.
- mreiland 12y ago
  He directly referenced Linux which is famously under GPLv2. You can argue with this wording if you like, but his observation is spot on and it's obvious to those are not unduly biased that he was speaking about the GPL and the licenses that were similar to it.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > He directly referenced Linux which is famously under GPLv2. Sure, he used it as an example, but he also explicitly made a generality about open source software, not the GPLv2. In any case, what he said was wrong about Linux, wrong about the GPL (including GPLv2), and wrong about open source software, so arguing over which of those he was talking about is a sideshow. > You can argue with this wording if you like, but his observation is spot on No, its absolutely, completely false. You can use -- or even distribute -- "open source software" (or GPL software, or Linux specifically) without "all your other software" being required to become open source.
    - nightski 12y ago
      By use it is pretty obvious he meant incorporate it as part of their products (ex. utilize a GPL library). Microsoft is a software development shop after all.
  - veidr 12y ago
    What I think is "obvious to those who are not unduly biased" is that he was cherrypicking the most extreme example (the restrictive GPL license, which is not used by most open source software[1]), and then trying to use that to spraypaint FUD over the (much) broader open source concept as a whole. "Open source is not available to commercial companies" is about as factually incorrect as any statement in the English language can aspire to be. [1]: http://johnhaller.com/useful-stuff/open-source-license-popularity http://johnhaller.com/useful-stuff/open-source-license-popul...
    - mreiland 12y ago
      weird how the GPL shows up as the most popular license by having double the marketshare of number 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft#Viral_licensing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft#Viral_licensing " Craig Mundie remarked, "This viral aspect of the GPL poses a threat to the intellectual property of any organization making use of it."[35] In another context, Steve Ballmer declared that code released under GPL is useless to the commercial sector (since it can only be used if the resulting surrounding code becomes GPL), describing it thus as "a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches"." It seems even the Wiki editors believe he was speaking about the GPL. Stop being a jackass.
      - the_why_of_y 12y ago
        If any of that FUD were true, how do you explain that Microsoft has been shipping the "Subsystem for UNIX-based Applications" add-on for Windows Server for a decade, while Ballmer was CEO? https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc771470.aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc771470.aspx https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Services_for_UNIX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Services_for_UNIX It includes GPL-licensed programs such as GCC and GDB; shouldn't Microsoft have released the source code of Windows Server by now if these statements weren't anything but FUD?
    - thomasz 12y ago
      That was 2001. There was no SAS loophole to exploit. If you desired to sell software, you had to ship it. In a box. The GPL was as viable for businesses back then as the AGPL is today.
  - Retra 12y ago
    It seems to me like he was purposefully taking a hard political stance on a nuanced issue in order to drive people who are uninformed or unsure about these things into his own company's pen. It has nothing to do with linux, GPL, or any technicality, and everything to do with perceptions, executive policy, and business culture.
    - mreiland 12y ago
      perhaps, but he was referring to the GPL, and this particular discussion started because one poster asked roughly "wasn't he being accurate"? And the answer is yes.
  - ascendantlogic 12y ago
    No, you can use Linux without having to open source the stuff you run on Linux. That is not an accurate observation by any stretch of the imagination.
nailer 12y ago
Using code is very distinct from using software (which Balmer referred to).
dllthomas 12y ago
"After a year and a half of public consultation, thousands of comments, and four drafts, version 3 of the GNU General Public License (GPLv3) was finally published on June 29, 2007." https://www.gnu.org/licenses/quick-guide-gplv3.html https://www.gnu.org/licenses/quick-guide-gplv3.html Regardless of what one thinks about GPLv3, Ballmer could not possibly have been talking about it in 2001.
nu2ycombinator 12y ago
He is right about GPL. But there is a loop hole behind it, which all the open source companies use it. If the software is behind a web UI it does not need to be released back as a open source. Thats how all other big companies like Google, Facebook does not need to open source their source code back.

by serge2k 12y ago

dragonwriter 12y ago

> Is he wrong about the GPL? Yes, even if he was talking about the GPL when he said "open source software", he would be wrong. (And if he meant the GPL, he would be wrong in using the general term "open source software" in referring to it, even if his statements were accurate for the GPL.) > It actually does what he is talking about by design. No it doesn't. He says "if you use any open-source software, you have to make the rest of your software open source." You can use GPL software without making your other software GPL. You can distribute GPL software without making your other software GPL. You can distribute GPL software without making other software you distribute together with the GPL software GPL, too, in some cases. > Every company which uses GPL code is very careful about how they do so. Many of them also produce a lot of non-GPL software. Which demonstrates that the "all your other software" claim is false.

mreiland 12y ago
He directly referenced Linux which is famously under GPLv2. You can argue with this wording if you like, but his observation is spot on and it's obvious to those are not unduly biased that he was speaking about the GPL and the licenses that were similar to it.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > He directly referenced Linux which is famously under GPLv2. Sure, he used it as an example, but he also explicitly made a generality about open source software, not the GPLv2. In any case, what he said was wrong about Linux, wrong about the GPL (including GPLv2), and wrong about open source software, so arguing over which of those he was talking about is a sideshow. > You can argue with this wording if you like, but his observation is spot on No, its absolutely, completely false. You can use -- or even distribute -- "open source software" (or GPL software, or Linux specifically) without "all your other software" being required to become open source.
  - nightski 12y ago
    By use it is pretty obvious he meant incorporate it as part of their products (ex. utilize a GPL library). Microsoft is a software development shop after all.
- veidr 12y ago
  What I think is "obvious to those who are not unduly biased" is that he was cherrypicking the most extreme example (the restrictive GPL license, which is not used by most open source software[1]), and then trying to use that to spraypaint FUD over the (much) broader open source concept as a whole. "Open source is not available to commercial companies" is about as factually incorrect as any statement in the English language can aspire to be. [1]: http://johnhaller.com/useful-stuff/open-source-license-popularity http://johnhaller.com/useful-stuff/open-source-license-popul...
  - mreiland 12y ago
    weird how the GPL shows up as the most popular license by having double the marketshare of number 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft#Viral_licensing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft#Viral_licensing " Craig Mundie remarked, "This viral aspect of the GPL poses a threat to the intellectual property of any organization making use of it."[35] In another context, Steve Ballmer declared that code released under GPL is useless to the commercial sector (since it can only be used if the resulting surrounding code becomes GPL), describing it thus as "a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches"." It seems even the Wiki editors believe he was speaking about the GPL. Stop being a jackass.
    - the_why_of_y 12y ago
      If any of that FUD were true, how do you explain that Microsoft has been shipping the "Subsystem for UNIX-based Applications" add-on for Windows Server for a decade, while Ballmer was CEO? https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc771470.aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc771470.aspx https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Services_for_UNIX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Services_for_UNIX It includes GPL-licensed programs such as GCC and GDB; shouldn't Microsoft have released the source code of Windows Server by now if these statements weren't anything but FUD?
  - thomasz 12y ago
    That was 2001. There was no SAS loophole to exploit. If you desired to sell software, you had to ship it. In a box. The GPL was as viable for businesses back then as the AGPL is today.
- Retra 12y ago
  It seems to me like he was purposefully taking a hard political stance on a nuanced issue in order to drive people who are uninformed or unsure about these things into his own company's pen. It has nothing to do with linux, GPL, or any technicality, and everything to do with perceptions, executive policy, and business culture.
  - mreiland 12y ago
    perhaps, but he was referring to the GPL, and this particular discussion started because one poster asked roughly "wasn't he being accurate"? And the answer is yes.
- ascendantlogic 12y ago
  No, you can use Linux without having to open source the stuff you run on Linux. That is not an accurate observation by any stretch of the imagination.

nailer 12y ago

Using code is very distinct from using software (which Balmer referred to).

dllthomas 12y ago

"After a year and a half of public consultation, thousands of comments, and four drafts, version 3 of the GNU General Public License (GPLv3) was finally published on June 29, 2007." https://www.gnu.org/licenses/quick-guide-gplv3.html https://www.gnu.org/licenses/quick-guide-gplv3.html Regardless of what one thinks about GPLv3, Ballmer could not possibly have been talking about it in 2001.

nu2ycombinator 12y ago

He is right about GPL. But there is a loop hole behind it, which all the open source companies use it. If the software is behind a web UI it does not need to be released back as a open source. Thats how all other big companies like Google, Facebook does not need to open source their source code back.