4 ms·

Panic and OmniGroup were big 10 years ago. The fact that nobody has appeared on the scene, innovated and become a name that you or I can quote is quite telling

by notsony 11y ago

Panic and OmniGroup were big 10 years ago. The fact that nobody has appeared on the scene, innovated and become a name that you or I can quote is quite telling. Where is the new blood? I personally know many long-time Mac developers who have sold their products to others to maintain, or have quietly slipped away and let sales slide. The 30% fee is not an industry standard that was debated and researched and rationalized. It's an abitrary number picked out by Apple first and then followed by others in order to maximize income from the work of third-party developers who are forced to pay or quit the platform. It's a de facto standard imposed by the platform gatekeepers. Calling it an "industry standard" sounds like it's an ISO recommendation :-) There is no reason at all to charge a $99 fee to developers given the vast income generated from the 30% and the overall health of the company. This is nickle'n'diming developers. Some people claim that "Apple Developer" is a cost-center, an independently run business silo that must generate a profit to justify its existence, that it's not a charity... i say no. It contributes to the overall well-being of Apple Inc as a whole, just like human resources and research and development does, it helps contributes to the overall profits of the company, so when we look at the company's overall financial health, in my mind, there is no doubt that developers are being taken for a ride because... ...they have nowhere else to go because their Apple centric skill-set is not transferable to other platforms.

adripop 11y ago
Pixelmator team ?
- notsony 11y ago
  If I'm not mistaken those guys appeared on the scene back in 2006/2007. They showed off Pixelmator at WWDC and it went down pretty well but that's still their only product, apart from an iOS version. I guess another way to look at it is this: If you had an idea for a desktop app today, would you decide to write for Mac first using a proprietary language Swift and proprietary SDKs like CoreData or would you pick C# and .NET so the bulk of your code could be re-used on both desktop and mobile, and you could bind to native toolkits for the UI?
  - marssaxman 11y ago
    Neither! I'd say "fuck that nonsense" and go do something else.
  - stdgy 11y ago
    Honest question, not snark: Who are some big C# developers that create major applications consumers (Not enterprises) use everyday? You mentioned the paucity of major OSX/iOS developers, but I'm not sure the case isn't the same for C#/.NET.
    - Margh 11y ago
      My first thought is any game written in Unity. Works on desktops and android more or less out of the box and iOS with a little bit of tinkering.
    - Joe4evr 11y ago
      Supergiant Games (Bastion and Transistor) and Squad (Kerbal Space Program), to name a couple. And all the StackExchange sites are made on ASP.NET, if you want to count that too.
      - stdgy 11y ago
        The Unity-oriented stuff are good examples. The Stack Exchange sites came to my mind as well, though I was hesitant to count web apps.
MCRed 11y ago
It's an "arbitrary" number in the sense that it is the revers of the previous industry standard in the mobile space which was 70/30 in favor of the Carrier. Often times developers would get less than %30 of the revenue for their products. And they had many more hoops to jump thru to get to the market, could only even get a meeting to try and get on mobile devices if they were already a large company, and had to work with terrible SDKs, etc. Apple democratized and revolutionized that entire industry, providing a level playing field where I can compete with Omni, and we both have the same hoops to jump thru and get the same deal. We both get a much better deal than before. The $99 fee covers the cost of administering the developer program. This program is hugely popular, and is already overrun with people who just want to get access to early versions of iOS before they are released publicly. Even with the $99 fee. It's a very low fee so that anyone serious can afford it, but high enough to keep out the problematic people who would abuse the service and overwhelm Apple's developer support resources. Seriously, I find it kinda curious that you're complaining about $99 as if it's some big barrier. The idea that an "Apple centric skill-set is not transferrable to other platforms" is pretty darn silly. I mean, sure, if you learn to program using Cocoa you will be frustrated and annoyed at how terrible certain other platforms are to develop for. But these days only HR people seem to think that programmers can only learn one langage and that experienced in one language is not useful in other languages or using other frameworks. Are you an HR person? Because that perspective is not one I would expect from any software developer.
- notsony 11y ago
  The Internet democratized the entire software industry by allowing developers to sell direct to customers. You would no longer have to beg CompUSA to carry your boxed software in store. Before the rise of the App Stores, you could use Kagi or eSellerate to sell your software for 8-12%, or you could use PayPal, WorldPay, 2Checkout for 2-4%. Things are even cheaper and easier now with Braintree, Stripe, etc. Apple charges 30% because they can, just like how CompUSA could charge whatever they wanted and make you pay for boxing and associated costs, because the software you spent a year writing cannot be sold anywhere else except on their platform. And if you want to sell by yourself on the Mac, without using the Mac App Store, you are a second class citizen because certain APIs like the iCloud SDK are not available to you. If the $99 is a nominal amount, why even charge it? Why $99 and not $49? Or $199? Again, it's a number they came up with which they felt a certain demographic, let's say teenage programmers could afford, or younger kids could get their parents to pay for. I'm open to better reasons if you have one. Being experienced in many languages does not make one a good programmer. You can be the jack of all trades and master of none. You think someone can just pick up C++ in a few weeks and become an "expert"? It takes years to become proficient in not only a single language but it's associated tooling and ecosystem. I have no doubt that there are many developers out there who have spent years of effort learning Apple's proprietary stack and are now regretting it and kicking themselves because a decade has passed and Apple, as a friend to developers, has regressed and gone backwards. Finally, Cocoa is a nice enough API, but have you ever had a problem and then tried to resolve it? Good luck going to the sign-in Apple developer forums where everyone shouts "ssh, we can't talk about it, it's under NDA" or having to file a bug report on Radar where nobody even responds and when they do it's to say it's a duplicate bug filing or, or opening a DTS incident and having the person say "Yep, it's a bug on our end, not sure when it will be fixed, in the mean time try a workaround". How is this better than having an open roadmap with discussion in public forums regarding language/SDK features, bugs, fixes etc?
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
MrGando 11y ago
You are generalizing too much. Panic big 10 years ago? Coda came out in 2007, and it was pretty big for a while. So omnigroup is no longer a thing? They are alive and kicking. I agree that they both had faced problems with the Apple Sandboxing scheme, but I guess they'll overcome those issues (even by being out of the App Store). What about Sketch, AgileBits, Alfred? I know many long time devs who are still doing it and haven't sold their products to others to maintain... And I also happen know -lots- of new Mac/iOS devs. Nothing to say about the 30%, it's just a pathetic argument, people have pointed it out already. There is a reason to charge a $99 fee. There's also a reason to force a user to put a credit card to create an App Store Account, there's a reason to request a CC to create an Amazon account too. And $99 bucks is literally nothing, check MSDN and Visual Studio (https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/products/how-to-buy-vs.aspx https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/products/how-to-buy-vs.as...). About 'Apple Centric Skill-set' not being transferable to other platforms? Sorry, but... are you f'ing kidding me? If you learn -any- framework, made by anyone at all, in-depth (not just copy pasting code here and there), you'll get skills that are transferable to other development environments. I've learned a ton of C/C++ and even some Assembly by doing iOS, I've also dealt with several scripting languages in the process. If you're a real Engineer, and you really learn and understand a framework (Apple's or not) it should contribute to your growth. Cheers.
- randallsquared 11y ago
  Coda? Coda is just Panic's new thing. They used to make the main file transfer application on Mac, Transmit, which was originally developed for classic Mac OS.
  - MrGando 11y ago
    And before that they made Audion for Mac OS Classic (audio app that I used a lot). What's the point here? :)
    - randallsquared 11y ago
      My point was that they were already stuggling to retain mindshare when Coda was released. They went from being a well-known fish in a small pond to being an average fish in a great lake, so their relative importance has certainly been declining from ten years ago.

by notsony 11y ago

adripop 11y ago

Pixelmator team ?

notsony 11y ago
If I'm not mistaken those guys appeared on the scene back in 2006/2007. They showed off Pixelmator at WWDC and it went down pretty well but that's still their only product, apart from an iOS version. I guess another way to look at it is this: If you had an idea for a desktop app today, would you decide to write for Mac first using a proprietary language Swift and proprietary SDKs like CoreData or would you pick C# and .NET so the bulk of your code could be re-used on both desktop and mobile, and you could bind to native toolkits for the UI?
- marssaxman 11y ago
  Neither! I'd say "fuck that nonsense" and go do something else.
- stdgy 11y ago
  Honest question, not snark: Who are some big C# developers that create major applications consumers (Not enterprises) use everyday? You mentioned the paucity of major OSX/iOS developers, but I'm not sure the case isn't the same for C#/.NET.
  - Margh 11y ago
    My first thought is any game written in Unity. Works on desktops and android more or less out of the box and iOS with a little bit of tinkering.
  - Joe4evr 11y ago
    Supergiant Games (Bastion and Transistor) and Squad (Kerbal Space Program), to name a couple. And all the StackExchange sites are made on ASP.NET, if you want to count that too.
    - stdgy 11y ago
      The Unity-oriented stuff are good examples. The Stack Exchange sites came to my mind as well, though I was hesitant to count web apps.

MCRed 11y ago

It's an "arbitrary" number in the sense that it is the revers of the previous industry standard in the mobile space which was 70/30 in favor of the Carrier. Often times developers would get less than %30 of the revenue for their products. And they had many more hoops to jump thru to get to the market, could only even get a meeting to try and get on mobile devices if they were already a large company, and had to work with terrible SDKs, etc. Apple democratized and revolutionized that entire industry, providing a level playing field where I can compete with Omni, and we both have the same hoops to jump thru and get the same deal. We both get a much better deal than before. The $99 fee covers the cost of administering the developer program. This program is hugely popular, and is already overrun with people who just want to get access to early versions of iOS before they are released publicly. Even with the $99 fee. It's a very low fee so that anyone serious can afford it, but high enough to keep out the problematic people who would abuse the service and overwhelm Apple's developer support resources. Seriously, I find it kinda curious that you're complaining about $99 as if it's some big barrier. The idea that an "Apple centric skill-set is not transferrable to other platforms" is pretty darn silly. I mean, sure, if you learn to program using Cocoa you will be frustrated and annoyed at how terrible certain other platforms are to develop for. But these days only HR people seem to think that programmers can only learn one langage and that experienced in one language is not useful in other languages or using other frameworks. Are you an HR person? Because that perspective is not one I would expect from any software developer.

notsony 11y ago
The Internet democratized the entire software industry by allowing developers to sell direct to customers. You would no longer have to beg CompUSA to carry your boxed software in store. Before the rise of the App Stores, you could use Kagi or eSellerate to sell your software for 8-12%, or you could use PayPal, WorldPay, 2Checkout for 2-4%. Things are even cheaper and easier now with Braintree, Stripe, etc. Apple charges 30% because they can, just like how CompUSA could charge whatever they wanted and make you pay for boxing and associated costs, because the software you spent a year writing cannot be sold anywhere else except on their platform. And if you want to sell by yourself on the Mac, without using the Mac App Store, you are a second class citizen because certain APIs like the iCloud SDK are not available to you. If the $99 is a nominal amount, why even charge it? Why $99 and not $49? Or $199? Again, it's a number they came up with which they felt a certain demographic, let's say teenage programmers could afford, or younger kids could get their parents to pay for. I'm open to better reasons if you have one. Being experienced in many languages does not make one a good programmer. You can be the jack of all trades and master of none. You think someone can just pick up C++ in a few weeks and become an "expert"? It takes years to become proficient in not only a single language but it's associated tooling and ecosystem. I have no doubt that there are many developers out there who have spent years of effort learning Apple's proprietary stack and are now regretting it and kicking themselves because a decade has passed and Apple, as a friend to developers, has regressed and gone backwards. Finally, Cocoa is a nice enough API, but have you ever had a problem and then tried to resolve it? Good luck going to the sign-in Apple developer forums where everyone shouts "ssh, we can't talk about it, it's under NDA" or having to file a bug report on Radar where nobody even responds and when they do it's to say it's a duplicate bug filing or, or opening a DTS incident and having the person say "Yep, it's a bug on our end, not sure when it will be fixed, in the mean time try a workaround". How is this better than having an open roadmap with discussion in public forums regarding language/SDK features, bugs, fixes etc?

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

MrGando 11y ago

You are generalizing too much. Panic big 10 years ago? Coda came out in 2007, and it was pretty big for a while. So omnigroup is no longer a thing? They are alive and kicking. I agree that they both had faced problems with the Apple Sandboxing scheme, but I guess they'll overcome those issues (even by being out of the App Store). What about Sketch, AgileBits, Alfred? I know many long time devs who are still doing it and haven't sold their products to others to maintain... And I also happen know -lots- of new Mac/iOS devs. Nothing to say about the 30%, it's just a pathetic argument, people have pointed it out already. There is a reason to charge a $99 fee. There's also a reason to force a user to put a credit card to create an App Store Account, there's a reason to request a CC to create an Amazon account too. And $99 bucks is literally nothing, check MSDN and Visual Studio (https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/products/how-to-buy-vs.aspx https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/products/how-to-buy-vs.as...). About 'Apple Centric Skill-set' not being transferable to other platforms? Sorry, but... are you f'ing kidding me? If you learn -any- framework, made by anyone at all, in-depth (not just copy pasting code here and there), you'll get skills that are transferable to other development environments. I've learned a ton of C/C++ and even some Assembly by doing iOS, I've also dealt with several scripting languages in the process. If you're a real Engineer, and you really learn and understand a framework (Apple's or not) it should contribute to your growth. Cheers.

randallsquared 11y ago
Coda? Coda is just Panic's new thing. They used to make the main file transfer application on Mac, Transmit, which was originally developed for classic Mac OS.
- MrGando 11y ago
  And before that they made Audion for Mac OS Classic (audio app that I used a lot). What's the point here? :)
  - randallsquared 11y ago
    My point was that they were already stuggling to retain mindshare when Coda was released. They went from being a well-known fish in a small pond to being an average fish in a great lake, so their relative importance has certainly been declining from ten years ago.