6 ms·

This is interesting but is there any commitment to support it long term? I remember when Silverlight was supposed to be the savior that brought .NET to Mac and

by tdicola 12y ago

This is interesting but is there any commitment to support it long term? I remember when Silverlight was supposed to be the savior that brought .NET to Mac and Linux, but that didn't last more than 5 years. Would be nice for MS to say they guarantee support for 10, 15, etc. years.

Someone1234 12y ago
I'm playing devil's advocate: But Silverlight was too little too late. It arrived right as Flash was effectively dying. I don't blame them for killing it, it was dead on arrival. I can explain the entire problem with Silverlight using two dates: - iPhone initial release: 29th of June 2007 - Silverlight initial release: 5th of September 2007 Now, we can argue if iOS killed Flash, but I think between iOS's lack of support and all of the security issues associated with Flash, it was set up to lose popular support (and then HTML5/HTML5 DRM filled in the gap, even if it took years ultimately). Silverlight was a Flash competitor in a world that decided it didn't need Flash.
- InclinedPlane 12y ago
  Silverlight was a half-assed, brain-dead attempt at trying to compete with Flash. It started out as a cool demo and then blew up into a role that didn't fit it well with insufficient support on the dev side. What it should have been was a competitor for AJAX/jQuery. What it turned into was just another video player browser plug-in.
  - s_kilk 12y ago
    Indeed, and yet we somehow ended up with a whole bunch of Line-of-Business desktop apps written in Silverlight. I did a brief stint at a windows-shop that made and maintained a variety of such apps.
RCampbell 12y ago
Silverlight is still supported by Microsoft - https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle?c2=12905 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle?c2=12905
- bdcravens 12y ago
  Your username sounds very similar to the .NET Rocks host :-)
  - RCampbell 12y ago
    Spooky, huh?
    - JeremyMorgan 12y ago
      Real Spooky Rich. Real Spooky.
- tdicola 12y ago
  Supported with bug fixes, sure. Supported well enough to do modern application development (with the latest C#, .NET framework features, etc)? No. The last major release (Silverlight 5) was 4 years ago.
- tacos 12y ago
  I have the largest cable provider in the country and when I click "watch TV on my laptop" it launches Silverlight. (It sucks, by the way). But people pretending the thing isn't used and isn't supported are really grasping at straws here. If you're going to bring a plastic knife to a watergun fight, at least point it in the right direction... You know who didn't (and does not) support Silverlight? Developers! We moved on from Silverlight well before Microsoft did. That's the important distinction when you talk about sunsetting technologies. Microsoft's track record here is FAR better than that of Google or Apple.
  - waterlesscloud 12y ago
    Doesn't Netflix run on Silverlight? Or did they change that?
    - garblegarble 12y ago
      Netflix now use HTML5 where possible (they need Media Source Extensions and Encrypted Media Extensions) but they do fall-back on Silverlight with unsupported browsers[1] (Firefox and old browsers). [1] https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23742 https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23742
wtetzner 12y ago
One thing that's nice is that it's now open source, so as long as it remains open source, it will likely remain cross platform. Contributers that are on non-windows platforms will likely notice when something breaks on their platform, and get it fixed.
- phkahler 12y ago
  Only core components and now a stripped down IDE are open source (core is actually free software IIRC). I will only be impressed if the entire runtime stack becomes open source. Otherwise it's still a platform for DRM or other forms of lockdown. If you're not porting a .net application to MAC or Linux, I would avoid this for quite a while still. We don't know where this is going long term.
  - WDCDev 12y ago
    The entire runtime stack is open source. https://github.com/dotnet/corefx https://github.com/dotnet/corefx https://github.com/dotnet/coreclr https://github.com/dotnet/coreclr
    - phkahler 12y ago
      Right. Core. No Windows forms, so the only app I ever wrote for it will not work yet.
      - pbgodwin 12y ago
        Windows Forms is only a subset of the framework. I don't think exposing Windows Forms as an open source GUI stack would be worth while. It's old and clunky compared to WPF and XAML. Even without a open source GUI stack the open source .Net Runtime and Framework provide value to .Net developers like myself who enjoy C# (and the F# lovers too!) to develop on Linux, FreeBSD, and OS X with much less pain than in the past. Not fitting each and every scenario doesn't diminish its significance.
  - walkon 12y ago
bdcravens 12y ago
Has Google/Mozilla made the same commitments to Go/Rust?
- tdicola 12y ago
  It's a bit different when there's a runtime required to run the apps. An app written in Go/Rust today will run on a machine 10, 20, 100 years from now as it's just an entirely self-contained executable. A .NET app will only run on a machine that has a functioning and supported .NET framework.
  - RCampbell 12y ago
    You can always compile the .NET Framework into your app... https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn584397(v=vs.110).aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn584397(v=vs.110)....
    - nekitamo 12y ago
      This only works for Windows Store applications, which is a tiny subset of all the .NET applications out there.
      - runfaster2000 12y ago
        .NET Native will expand to other app types. See the last paragraph of this section: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dotnet/archive/2015/04/29/net-announcements-at-build-2015.aspx#efficient http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dotnet/archive/2015/04/29/net-announ... .
coldtea 12y ago
This is the CLR and .NET class libs. Unlike Silveright they have been supported for 15 years already, and will be aggresively developed in the future too. Besides, they've just been opensourced, even if this IDE project dies, those will stick around as long as Java will...
apalmer 12y ago
This is the thing with Microsoft is this is never in doubt. It is Google who ends of life's things and stops support. Microsoft still has supports things in Windows 8.1 that were BUGS in MS-DOS in order to allow programs from that era to run. Microsoft will support .NetCore for at least 20 years. Without doubt.
- bbatchelder 12y ago
  They may still support it, but it can be a technological dead-end. Just like Silverlight.
  - njloof 12y ago
    Or Internet Explorer (for Mac).
- Immortalin 12y ago
  Heard of Visual Basic 6?
  - vborovikov 11y ago
    The runtime is still here. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/gp/vbruntime https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/gp/vbruntime
- crdoconnor 12y ago
  >Microsoft will support .NetCore for at least 20 years. Without doubt. On Windows for sure. Not on *nix though.
  - meddlepal 12y ago
    I think they will. I think we're slowly moving to a post-Windows Microsoft world and MS is taking a leap to be a big part of that through tools. I do not think Windows will be a thing in 2025.
    - 12y ago
SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
> Silverlight was supposed to be the savior that brought .NET to Mac and Linux Silverlight was supposed to bring .NET to browsers on Mac and Linux. Someone1234's comment is IMHO correct and very astute - Silverlight wasn't all bad, but it solved the wrong problem. On the other hand, this is all about bringing .Net to web servers on Mac and Linux. particularly Linux boxes and container in clouds. My experience may not be typical, but to me that's the right problem. The MS Azure team probably agrees.

by tdicola 12y ago

Someone1234 12y ago

I'm playing devil's advocate: But Silverlight was too little too late. It arrived right as Flash was effectively dying. I don't blame them for killing it, it was dead on arrival. I can explain the entire problem with Silverlight using two dates: - iPhone initial release: 29th of June 2007 - Silverlight initial release: 5th of September 2007 Now, we can argue if iOS killed Flash, but I think between iOS's lack of support and all of the security issues associated with Flash, it was set up to lose popular support (and then HTML5/HTML5 DRM filled in the gap, even if it took years ultimately). Silverlight was a Flash competitor in a world that decided it didn't need Flash.

InclinedPlane 12y ago
Silverlight was a half-assed, brain-dead attempt at trying to compete with Flash. It started out as a cool demo and then blew up into a role that didn't fit it well with insufficient support on the dev side. What it should have been was a competitor for AJAX/jQuery. What it turned into was just another video player browser plug-in.
- s_kilk 12y ago
  Indeed, and yet we somehow ended up with a whole bunch of Line-of-Business desktop apps written in Silverlight. I did a brief stint at a windows-shop that made and maintained a variety of such apps.

RCampbell 12y ago

Silverlight is still supported by Microsoft - https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle?c2=12905 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle?c2=12905

bdcravens 12y ago
Your username sounds very similar to the .NET Rocks host :-)
- RCampbell 12y ago
  Spooky, huh?
  - JeremyMorgan 12y ago
    Real Spooky Rich. Real Spooky.
tdicola 12y ago
Supported with bug fixes, sure. Supported well enough to do modern application development (with the latest C#, .NET framework features, etc)? No. The last major release (Silverlight 5) was 4 years ago.
tacos 12y ago
I have the largest cable provider in the country and when I click "watch TV on my laptop" it launches Silverlight. (It sucks, by the way). But people pretending the thing isn't used and isn't supported are really grasping at straws here. If you're going to bring a plastic knife to a watergun fight, at least point it in the right direction... You know who didn't (and does not) support Silverlight? Developers! We moved on from Silverlight well before Microsoft did. That's the important distinction when you talk about sunsetting technologies. Microsoft's track record here is FAR better than that of Google or Apple.
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  Doesn't Netflix run on Silverlight? Or did they change that?
  - garblegarble 12y ago
    Netflix now use HTML5 where possible (they need Media Source Extensions and Encrypted Media Extensions) but they do fall-back on Silverlight with unsupported browsers[1] (Firefox and old browsers). [1] https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23742 https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23742

wtetzner 12y ago

One thing that's nice is that it's now open source, so as long as it remains open source, it will likely remain cross platform. Contributers that are on non-windows platforms will likely notice when something breaks on their platform, and get it fixed.

phkahler 12y ago
Only core components and now a stripped down IDE are open source (core is actually free software IIRC). I will only be impressed if the entire runtime stack becomes open source. Otherwise it's still a platform for DRM or other forms of lockdown. If you're not porting a .net application to MAC or Linux, I would avoid this for quite a while still. We don't know where this is going long term.
- WDCDev 12y ago
  The entire runtime stack is open source. https://github.com/dotnet/corefx https://github.com/dotnet/corefx https://github.com/dotnet/coreclr https://github.com/dotnet/coreclr
  - phkahler 12y ago
    Right. Core. No Windows forms, so the only app I ever wrote for it will not work yet.
    - pbgodwin 12y ago
      Windows Forms is only a subset of the framework. I don't think exposing Windows Forms as an open source GUI stack would be worth while. It's old and clunky compared to WPF and XAML. Even without a open source GUI stack the open source .Net Runtime and Framework provide value to .Net developers like myself who enjoy C# (and the F# lovers too!) to develop on Linux, FreeBSD, and OS X with much less pain than in the past. Not fitting each and every scenario doesn't diminish its significance.
- walkon 12y ago

bdcravens 12y ago

Has Google/Mozilla made the same commitments to Go/Rust?

tdicola 12y ago
It's a bit different when there's a runtime required to run the apps. An app written in Go/Rust today will run on a machine 10, 20, 100 years from now as it's just an entirely self-contained executable. A .NET app will only run on a machine that has a functioning and supported .NET framework.
- RCampbell 12y ago
  You can always compile the .NET Framework into your app... https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn584397(v=vs.110).aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn584397(v=vs.110)....
  - nekitamo 12y ago
    This only works for Windows Store applications, which is a tiny subset of all the .NET applications out there.
    - runfaster2000 12y ago
      .NET Native will expand to other app types. See the last paragraph of this section: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dotnet/archive/2015/04/29/net-announcements-at-build-2015.aspx#efficient http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dotnet/archive/2015/04/29/net-announ... .

coldtea 12y ago

This is the CLR and .NET class libs. Unlike Silveright they have been supported for 15 years already, and will be aggresively developed in the future too. Besides, they've just been opensourced, even if this IDE project dies, those will stick around as long as Java will...

apalmer 12y ago

This is the thing with Microsoft is this is never in doubt. It is Google who ends of life's things and stops support. Microsoft still has supports things in Windows 8.1 that were BUGS in MS-DOS in order to allow programs from that era to run. Microsoft will support .NetCore for at least 20 years. Without doubt.

bbatchelder 12y ago
They may still support it, but it can be a technological dead-end. Just like Silverlight.
- njloof 12y ago
  Or Internet Explorer (for Mac).
Immortalin 12y ago
Heard of Visual Basic 6?
- vborovikov 11y ago
  The runtime is still here. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/gp/vbruntime https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/gp/vbruntime
crdoconnor 12y ago
>Microsoft will support .NetCore for at least 20 years. Without doubt. On Windows for sure. Not on *nix though.
- meddlepal 12y ago
  I think they will. I think we're slowly moving to a post-Windows Microsoft world and MS is taking a leap to be a big part of that through tools. I do not think Windows will be a thing in 2025.
  - 12y ago

SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago

> Silverlight was supposed to be the savior that brought .NET to Mac and Linux Silverlight was supposed to bring .NET to browsers on Mac and Linux. Someone1234's comment is IMHO correct and very astute - Silverlight wasn't all bad, but it solved the wrong problem. On the other hand, this is all about bringing .Net to web servers on Mac and Linux. particularly Linux boxes and container in clouds. My experience may not be typical, but to me that's the right problem. The MS Azure team probably agrees.