4 ms·

When propaganda is really effective, it doesn't take a genius to be called an asshole. 40 years ago, you can express political views in america without worry o

by MCRed 11y ago

When propaganda is really effective, it doesn't take a genius to be called an asshole. 40 years ago, you can express political views in america without worry of being shamed (called an asshole) or denigrated for it, unless you were being really hateful--- like joining the KKK. Now people are able to effectively paint large swaths of people who are not assholes as "hate groups" or "terrorists" or "rape apologists" and the like. Now merely disagreeing with the president makes you a racist. (Which is very ironic, given that those making the accusation of racism are doing so only because the president is black.) Political Correctness has radically changed our society, and 1984 is seeming more real every day.

beat 11y ago
The only thing that has really changed is that information distribution is flattened and networked now, rather than top-down authority. Everyone has the same megaphone. We're not closer to 1984 every day - we're getting farther from it, every day. 1984 was all about centralized authority, not distributed opinion. If you're getting accused of "fostering rape culture", I strongly suggest that rather than feeling victimized, you ask some women what they think of your position on a situation, and listen to them. Don't lecture, and don't whine. Ask trusted female friends, not strangers. And if you don't have women in your life that you can talk to about it, that's probably part of the problem. Always have an open mind and be willing to change your opinion based on deeper understanding and better facts. It's possible to express even radical views without offending, if you are openminded and respectful. People react poorly to dogmatism and distrust.
- m52go 11y ago
  That would be true in a perfect world, but there's much truth in the notion that we're a victimizing culture [1]. [1] http://reason.com/archives/2015/04/03/offended-by-everything http://reason.com/archives/2015/04/03/offended-by-everything
  - beat 11y ago
    The solution to that is the one I offered - actually talking to the people who are on the other side, and asking them sincerely what is going on and what to do about it. So if, say, someone is getting called out on "rape culture" language for demanding "full disclosure" from someone talking about sexism... instead of retreating into the comforting arms of "victim culture" and "1984" references, try asking some women what they think. Don't tell, don't lecture, just ask. Have you heard of the Bechdel Test? It's a simple feminist film critique. In a movie, is there at least one scene where two women who have actual names and roles have a conversation that is not about men and what the men in the movie are doing? It's shocking how few movies pass that test (as Playboy just pointed out, The Avengers doesn't pass Bechdel Test, and a lot of the sexist language directed at Black Widow can be traced to that). I think there's a corollary to Bechdel somewhere... does a man have multiple female friends with whom he can openly and honestly discuss their experiences of sexism as women? I'll bet a lot of men don't have that at all. Their opinion of women's experiences is formed almost entirely from their own experiences, and the observations of other men. No wonder they don't get it.
    - m52go 11y ago
      You're right again. Your method is especially powerful on the personal level. When it comes to propaganda and the media, however, this method doesn't work. Sensationalism and click-bait rule, and that calls for conflict and sound-bites. Some times this conflict is manufactured, sometimes it isn't...but it's always sensationalized. I'd argue this trend has played a significant role in the destruction of our collective abilities to tolerate negativity, and it's also (in some remote way) been a factor in creating these filter bubbles we're discussing right now. TLDR: why do a proper, level-headed discussion exploring why women feel a certain way, when you could have a high-stakes, emotional, back-forth debate with highly-quotable 1-liners?
      - beat 11y ago
        I'd argue that it's actually not that bubbles are forming with new technology, but rather that bubbles are dissolving. I think race rather than sex is the more media-conscious way of looking at it. Why are we suddenly, as a society, arguing about police brutality against black men? It's not like it wasn't happening before. But it wasn't visible before, except to eyewitnesses. For your average white middle class suburbanite, they don't go to black neighborhoods, don't experience black culture, don't have friends who live there. It's an alien experience. It might as well be in Timbuktu for the relevance it has to their experience. But suddenly, everyone has smart phones with cameras and internet access, and this stuff is being filmed and published everywhere. Now, we can't not know about it. We can't pretend it doesn't exist. We have to talk about it - something immoral and wrong is clearly happening, and as a society, we have to face that. This really started with Rodney King, back 20 years ago now. That was a home video camera, with footage given to a tv station, but the result was the same. Now, it seems almost weekly. And I have no doubt that things will change. Brutality will be reduced, and justice will become fairer. Propaganda is much harder to do when contradictory facts are right there in our faces. It's become much more subtle. Now, it's not about just pushing an official version, but crowding out alternative views in a noisy environment. The trick isn't to prevent other points of view (that's how propaganda works), but rather to drown them out. Click bait will always be a problem. We can't help but rubberneck at violence and sex. But undeniable facts are coming to the fore faster and easier than ever, and the way of fighting those facts, right now, is to try to drown them in reverse-victimization arguments (Gamergate, #notallmen, etc). It won't work, not in the long run. Propaganda is less valuable now than it's ever been.
dragonwriter 11y ago
> 40 years ago, you can express political views in america without worry of being shamed (called an asshole) or denigrated for it, unless you were being really hateful--- like joining the KKK Someone is viewing the past through rose colored glasses. In 1975, plenty of people were be shamed and denigrated for expressing political views -- both left and right -- that were nowhere near the order of hatefulness of joining the KKK. There being some people that would attribute disagreements to certain prominent person's of non-white descent to racism certainly isn't something that wasn't happening in 1975 and earlier. It might be somewhat more likely that such an attitude will get noticed and magnified by both those that agree with it and those that are offended by it in the age of the internet, so more people will be exposed to the response. But that doesn't mean its actually any more common.

by MCRed 11y ago

beat 11y ago

The only thing that has really changed is that information distribution is flattened and networked now, rather than top-down authority. Everyone has the same megaphone. We're not closer to 1984 every day - we're getting farther from it, every day. 1984 was all about centralized authority, not distributed opinion. If you're getting accused of "fostering rape culture", I strongly suggest that rather than feeling victimized, you ask some women what they think of your position on a situation, and listen to them. Don't lecture, and don't whine. Ask trusted female friends, not strangers. And if you don't have women in your life that you can talk to about it, that's probably part of the problem. Always have an open mind and be willing to change your opinion based on deeper understanding and better facts. It's possible to express even radical views without offending, if you are openminded and respectful. People react poorly to dogmatism and distrust.

m52go 11y ago
That would be true in a perfect world, but there's much truth in the notion that we're a victimizing culture [1]. [1] http://reason.com/archives/2015/04/03/offended-by-everything http://reason.com/archives/2015/04/03/offended-by-everything
- beat 11y ago
  The solution to that is the one I offered - actually talking to the people who are on the other side, and asking them sincerely what is going on and what to do about it. So if, say, someone is getting called out on "rape culture" language for demanding "full disclosure" from someone talking about sexism... instead of retreating into the comforting arms of "victim culture" and "1984" references, try asking some women what they think. Don't tell, don't lecture, just ask. Have you heard of the Bechdel Test? It's a simple feminist film critique. In a movie, is there at least one scene where two women who have actual names and roles have a conversation that is not about men and what the men in the movie are doing? It's shocking how few movies pass that test (as Playboy just pointed out, The Avengers doesn't pass Bechdel Test, and a lot of the sexist language directed at Black Widow can be traced to that). I think there's a corollary to Bechdel somewhere... does a man have multiple female friends with whom he can openly and honestly discuss their experiences of sexism as women? I'll bet a lot of men don't have that at all. Their opinion of women's experiences is formed almost entirely from their own experiences, and the observations of other men. No wonder they don't get it.
  - m52go 11y ago
    You're right again. Your method is especially powerful on the personal level. When it comes to propaganda and the media, however, this method doesn't work. Sensationalism and click-bait rule, and that calls for conflict and sound-bites. Some times this conflict is manufactured, sometimes it isn't...but it's always sensationalized. I'd argue this trend has played a significant role in the destruction of our collective abilities to tolerate negativity, and it's also (in some remote way) been a factor in creating these filter bubbles we're discussing right now. TLDR: why do a proper, level-headed discussion exploring why women feel a certain way, when you could have a high-stakes, emotional, back-forth debate with highly-quotable 1-liners?
    - beat 11y ago
      I'd argue that it's actually not that bubbles are forming with new technology, but rather that bubbles are dissolving. I think race rather than sex is the more media-conscious way of looking at it. Why are we suddenly, as a society, arguing about police brutality against black men? It's not like it wasn't happening before. But it wasn't visible before, except to eyewitnesses. For your average white middle class suburbanite, they don't go to black neighborhoods, don't experience black culture, don't have friends who live there. It's an alien experience. It might as well be in Timbuktu for the relevance it has to their experience. But suddenly, everyone has smart phones with cameras and internet access, and this stuff is being filmed and published everywhere. Now, we can't not know about it. We can't pretend it doesn't exist. We have to talk about it - something immoral and wrong is clearly happening, and as a society, we have to face that. This really started with Rodney King, back 20 years ago now. That was a home video camera, with footage given to a tv station, but the result was the same. Now, it seems almost weekly. And I have no doubt that things will change. Brutality will be reduced, and justice will become fairer. Propaganda is much harder to do when contradictory facts are right there in our faces. It's become much more subtle. Now, it's not about just pushing an official version, but crowding out alternative views in a noisy environment. The trick isn't to prevent other points of view (that's how propaganda works), but rather to drown them out. Click bait will always be a problem. We can't help but rubberneck at violence and sex. But undeniable facts are coming to the fore faster and easier than ever, and the way of fighting those facts, right now, is to try to drown them in reverse-victimization arguments (Gamergate, #notallmen, etc). It won't work, not in the long run. Propaganda is less valuable now than it's ever been.

dragonwriter 11y ago

> 40 years ago, you can express political views in america without worry of being shamed (called an asshole) or denigrated for it, unless you were being really hateful--- like joining the KKK Someone is viewing the past through rose colored glasses. In 1975, plenty of people were be shamed and denigrated for expressing political views -- both left and right -- that were nowhere near the order of hatefulness of joining the KKK. There being some people that would attribute disagreements to certain prominent person's of non-white descent to racism certainly isn't something that wasn't happening in 1975 and earlier. It might be somewhat more likely that such an attitude will get noticed and magnified by both those that agree with it and those that are offended by it in the age of the internet, so more people will be exposed to the response. But that doesn't mean its actually any more common.