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Untraceable money is an oxymoron, the whole point of money is that the whole network of people using it, can trust it is not forged out of someones ass, and is

by antocv 11y ago

Untraceable money is an oxymoron, the whole point of money is that the whole network of people using it, can trust it is not forged out of someones ass, and is instead what its claimed to be. Imagine a world where every transaction, every penny spent or received by anyone, corporation, state, person, is open and transparent. No way to hide that corruption, that drug money or whatever else corporations and states are up to. No way to just make up money on the spot if you are rich and have a printer. No way to hide inequalities, at the workplace, between classes in a country.

jdjb 11y ago
Also no way to hide what you buy from your family, friends, co-workers, employer, future employers, etc. No way to hide what your company spends its money on from its competitors. No financial privacy at all for anyone doesn't sound like a goal we should be pursuing.
- antocv 11y ago
  Yes, more open transparent society. Why should anyone feel shamed for buying anything? Condoms, oh wow, birth control, what is this the middle ages? Exactly because another party, not just you, is concerned every time you buy something, is the reason why its not private and should not be.
at-fates-hands 11y ago
>> No way to hide that corruption, that drug money or whatever else corporations and states are up to. Pretty sure anybody involved in any kind of criminal activity (Mexican cartels, organized crime families come to mind) will probably disagree with you.
- antocv 11y ago
  I mean, in an ideal every-transaction-is-open world, I doubt cartels would get away as easily as they do now.
stefanks 11y ago
No, it might be possible to have a ledger that you can trust to change according to some rules known to everybody, while the actual balances and transactions are encrypted. It is still an open problem as far as I know.
Frozenlock 11y ago
It's really not. Take a gold coin for example. You can test it's indeed made of gold without needing to know where it's from. Same is true for good money as a general rule. Say you get a US dollar bill. What you want to know is if it's genuine, not who's been using it. > "Imagine a world where every transaction (...) is open and transparent. No way to hide that corruption, that drug money or whatever else corporations and states are up to. No way to just make up money on the spot if you are rich and have a printer. No way to hide inequalities, at the workplace, between classes in a country." That's just wishful thinking. Most corruption and inequalities are in plain sight, wrapped in a web of social power and blackmailing. You think the farmers will stop getting subsidies? Or military industrial complex will grind to a halt? And what if you consider that drug money is legit? Plenty of markets are legit but don't have the support of the government. What you are talking about is not a way to remove corruption; it's a way to insure those in power will have even more power. It's also making sure the politically correct dominates everything. Better not buy something that could go against the will of the Church, because they'll know it... No, really, traceable money is it's own kind of hell.
- simonebrunozzi 11y ago
  Are you sure? The idea seems intriguing, to say the least.
- antocv 11y ago
  Do you know the origin of the gold coin? Was it mined and forged by payed workers, or was it stolen and forged by slaves? I, for one, wouldnt accept a random gold coin given to me by some stranger. I would like to know that the stranger didnt steal the coin. It doesnt matter if the gold is real itself. Its the token of what the gold is supposed to represent, some value, that is of interest, and that value is not in the gold itself, its like yeah man you can give me your phone thanks - but barter is not a good foundation to base your currency and economy on.
  - Frozenlock 11y ago
    Replace gold coin by dollar bill. Do you live by this standard? In other words, you never accept a dollar bill unless it comes directly from the printing press or if you can retrace its entire history?
sickpig 11y ago
Untraceable money is an oxymoron, the whole point of money is that the whole network of people using it, can trust it is not forged out of someones ass, and is instead what its claimed to be. Quick someone tell the federal reserve / ecb that QEs can't be used because they are an oxymoron (sorry can't resist). That said it is possible to have an open ledger used to avoid duble spends without revealing anything about someone finance, just look for monero (xmr) or zerocash.
copsarebastards 11y ago
> Untraceable money is an oxymoron, the whole point of money is that the whole network of people using it, can trust it is not forged out of someones ass, and is instead what its claimed to be. This is trivially disprovable. Gold. > Imagine a world where every transaction, every penny spent or received by anyone, corporation, state, person, is open and transparent. No way to hide that corruption, that drug money or whatever else corporations and states are up to. No way to just make up money on the spot if you are rich and have a printer. No way to hide inequalities, at the workplace, between classes in a country. The inequalities already aren't hidden and little is done about it. I'm not sure what you're thinking I'm going to imagine here. The other side to this is transparency of finances. Of people seeing every time anyone bought condoms--that can be spun politically. Unmarried women are already shamed publicly for being on birth control: do you want to expose every time someone goes to the pharmacy? More people going to jail for non-violent drug posession due to unjust laws? You seem to have a naive belief that more information is better. It's only better if that information is in the right hands.

by antocv 11y ago

jdjb 11y ago

Also no way to hide what you buy from your family, friends, co-workers, employer, future employers, etc. No way to hide what your company spends its money on from its competitors. No financial privacy at all for anyone doesn't sound like a goal we should be pursuing.

antocv 11y ago
Yes, more open transparent society. Why should anyone feel shamed for buying anything? Condoms, oh wow, birth control, what is this the middle ages? Exactly because another party, not just you, is concerned every time you buy something, is the reason why its not private and should not be.

at-fates-hands 11y ago

>> No way to hide that corruption, that drug money or whatever else corporations and states are up to. Pretty sure anybody involved in any kind of criminal activity (Mexican cartels, organized crime families come to mind) will probably disagree with you.

antocv 11y ago
I mean, in an ideal every-transaction-is-open world, I doubt cartels would get away as easily as they do now.

stefanks 11y ago

No, it might be possible to have a ledger that you can trust to change according to some rules known to everybody, while the actual balances and transactions are encrypted. It is still an open problem as far as I know.

Frozenlock 11y ago

It's really not. Take a gold coin for example. You can test it's indeed made of gold without needing to know where it's from. Same is true for good money as a general rule. Say you get a US dollar bill. What you want to know is if it's genuine, not who's been using it. > "Imagine a world where every transaction (...) is open and transparent. No way to hide that corruption, that drug money or whatever else corporations and states are up to. No way to just make up money on the spot if you are rich and have a printer. No way to hide inequalities, at the workplace, between classes in a country." That's just wishful thinking. Most corruption and inequalities are in plain sight, wrapped in a web of social power and blackmailing. You think the farmers will stop getting subsidies? Or military industrial complex will grind to a halt? And what if you consider that drug money is legit? Plenty of markets are legit but don't have the support of the government. What you are talking about is not a way to remove corruption; it's a way to insure those in power will have even more power. It's also making sure the politically correct dominates everything. Better not buy something that could go against the will of the Church, because they'll know it... No, really, traceable money is it's own kind of hell.

simonebrunozzi 11y ago
Are you sure? The idea seems intriguing, to say the least.
antocv 11y ago
Do you know the origin of the gold coin? Was it mined and forged by payed workers, or was it stolen and forged by slaves? I, for one, wouldnt accept a random gold coin given to me by some stranger. I would like to know that the stranger didnt steal the coin. It doesnt matter if the gold is real itself. Its the token of what the gold is supposed to represent, some value, that is of interest, and that value is not in the gold itself, its like yeah man you can give me your phone thanks - but barter is not a good foundation to base your currency and economy on.
- Frozenlock 11y ago
  Replace gold coin by dollar bill. Do you live by this standard? In other words, you never accept a dollar bill unless it comes directly from the printing press or if you can retrace its entire history?

sickpig 11y ago

Untraceable money is an oxymoron, the whole point of money is that the whole network of people using it, can trust it is not forged out of someones ass, and is instead what its claimed to be. Quick someone tell the federal reserve / ecb that QEs can't be used because they are an oxymoron (sorry can't resist). That said it is possible to have an open ledger used to avoid duble spends without revealing anything about someone finance, just look for monero (xmr) or zerocash.

copsarebastards 11y ago

> Untraceable money is an oxymoron, the whole point of money is that the whole network of people using it, can trust it is not forged out of someones ass, and is instead what its claimed to be. This is trivially disprovable. Gold. > Imagine a world where every transaction, every penny spent or received by anyone, corporation, state, person, is open and transparent. No way to hide that corruption, that drug money or whatever else corporations and states are up to. No way to just make up money on the spot if you are rich and have a printer. No way to hide inequalities, at the workplace, between classes in a country. The inequalities already aren't hidden and little is done about it. I'm not sure what you're thinking I'm going to imagine here. The other side to this is transparency of finances. Of people seeing every time anyone bought condoms--that can be spun politically. Unmarried women are already shamed publicly for being on birth control: do you want to expose every time someone goes to the pharmacy? More people going to jail for non-violent drug posession due to unjust laws? You seem to have a naive belief that more information is better. It's only better if that information is in the right hands.