6 ms·

> Outlaw the rest. Study the rest. The ban has brought many bad things, but it's also brought good alternatives. The 2C family, for example, arose because of t

> Outlaw the rest. Study the rest. The ban has brought many bad things, but it's also brought good alternatives. The 2C family, for example, arose because of the ban on LSD/mescaline/mushrooms, and is considered to have similar safety profile as the originals. Certain benzofurans (5/6-APB, APDB, MAPB, EAPB, etc) receive bigger love than MDMA because of fewer side effects and because they "bring back the magic" that prolonged MDMA use tends to dull out.

malka 11y ago
imo, the 2C family is old enough to not be considered a designer drug anymore.
tyho 11y ago
Legalise/Regulate all the drugs. Given the choice between a 'traditional' drug like Coke, MDMA and LSD and some new alphabet soup drug with no history of human use, very few people will choose the thing they haven't heard about. If there is one thing we have learned since the war on drugs it is that prohibition does not work. The 2C-x drugs certainly did not arise from the prohibition of older psychedelics. The man who invented them (along with MDMA earlier) was Alexander Shulgin. It was his life's work to discover and test these new drugs. I seriously doubt it was in reaction to prohibition. 2C-x as far as we know does not have a similar safety profile to the drugs you have mentioned in general. LSD is known to be safe in at least 1000x the normal dose. The highest dose in the literature for 2C-B is 5x the normal dose. Certain drugs in the series such as 2C-P have a very low safety margin[1]. [1] https://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal036.shtml https://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal036...
- Nursie 11y ago
  I'm not sure that Shulgin actually invented MDMA did he? Certainly he dedicated his life to discovery and testing of all sorts of interesting things, and his legacy is enormous, but I didn't think that one was his invention.
  - tyho 11y ago
    No, he rediscovered it and I believe he was the first one to try it.
- dEnigma 11y ago
  >LSD is known to be safe in at least 1000x the normal dose I'd love to see a citation for that
  - Karunamon 11y ago
    Erowid's got a MSDS for LSD that puts the LD50 at 50mg/kg, so for a 150 pound person, that works out to 3.4 grams. A normal dose of LSD is measured in micrograms, so the 1000x statement is at least very conservative.
  - tyho 11y ago
    http://www.lycaeum.org/research/researchpdfs/1977_griggs_1.pdf http://www.lycaeum.org/research/researchpdfs/1977_griggs_1.p... https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_death.shtml https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_death.shtml Ok, well maybe not 'safe', but people have taken that amount and survived. It is certainly not something I would recommend.
    - dEnigma 11y ago
      Thank you, I saw the erowid page before I posted and only read up to "more than 100 times a normal moderate dose of LSD" before I asked for a citation. Well, at least we know one shouldn't take 3200x the normal dose ;)
  - enkephalin 11y ago
    if the ld50 is anywhere near that of mice or rats, even a 10000x dose could be non lethal.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    They gave an elephant a very large dose, and it died, but they don't know if it was the LSD or the activity or the medical treatment that killed it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusko#The_elephant_on_LSD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusko#The_elephant_on_LSD > "Tusko" was also the name of a male Indian elephant at the Oklahoma City Zoo. On August 3, 1962,[4] researchers from the University of Oklahoma injected (human use involves oral ingestion) 297 mg of LSD (lysergic acid diethylamide) to him, which is over 1,000 times the dose typical of human recreational use. Within five minutes he collapsed to the ground and one hour and forty minutes later he died. It is believed that the LSD was the cause of his death, although some speculate that the drugs the researchers used in an attempt to revive him may have contributed to his death.
Cantremeber 11y ago
But at the same time we have things like nbomes which kill people and we don't know why. And then the other big issue with safety is when you get a white powder it's impossible to tell what it is without testing. People snort something they think is one drug, turns out they just took a massive of another.
- Nursie 11y ago
  We do indeed. I don't reckon many people would bother with them if they could buy LSD though. I find some novel psychedelics interesting, specifically anything that might not last quite so long.
Alex3917 11y ago
> The 2C family, for example, arose because of the ban on LSD/mescaline/mushrooms, and is considered to have similar safety profile as the originals. For what's it's worth many people think they have a higher risk of causing HPPD.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
Nursie 11y ago
FYI - the APBs are generally thought to have a lot higher affinity for the 5HT2b receptor than MDMA has. Activity at this receptor has been associated with heart-valve problems in the past, so it's probably even more important not to use them regularly than with MDMA. That said, when they were legal here, they were rather excellent...
- Uberphallus 11y ago
  That's misleading, MDMA itself has very little affinity for 5HT2b, but its action on the SERT dumps loads of serotonin which displays, by definition, pretty high affinity for it (Ki < 10, according to this https://www.acnp.org/g4/GN401000039/Ch039.html https://www.acnp.org/g4/GN401000039/Ch039.html). So even if the chemical doesn't show significant activity on 5HT2b in vitro, in vivo it actually does.
  - Nursie 11y ago
    Fair enough! You're likely more informed than I am in these matters. So here's a question - I had assumed that the SERT-dumping action of MDMA took place in the brain and did not spread masses of serotonin to the rest of the body, is this correct? Or does MDMA trigger serotonin floods that do get out to the system in general? The drug (be it MDMA or xAPB) is swimming around the whole system and is therefore free to act on the 5HT2b receptors present in the heart itself, which could promote valve mutation. Is this true for the serotonin as well?
    - Uberphallus 11y ago
      The substance reaches wherever blood gets to, with exceptions when crossing the brain barrier. Most of the 5-HT receptors are in the brain though. It's not true for serotonin. Serotonin is to be released, taken back and metabolized locally, in and around the synapse. It doesn't travel around the body, at least in significant amounts, as hormones do.

malka 11y ago

imo, the 2C family is old enough to not be considered a designer drug anymore.

tyho 11y ago

Legalise/Regulate all the drugs. Given the choice between a 'traditional' drug like Coke, MDMA and LSD and some new alphabet soup drug with no history of human use, very few people will choose the thing they haven't heard about. If there is one thing we have learned since the war on drugs it is that prohibition does not work. The 2C-x drugs certainly did not arise from the prohibition of older psychedelics. The man who invented them (along with MDMA earlier) was Alexander Shulgin. It was his life's work to discover and test these new drugs. I seriously doubt it was in reaction to prohibition. 2C-x as far as we know does not have a similar safety profile to the drugs you have mentioned in general. LSD is known to be safe in at least 1000x the normal dose. The highest dose in the literature for 2C-B is 5x the normal dose. Certain drugs in the series such as 2C-P have a very low safety margin[1]. [1] https://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal036.shtml https://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal036...

Nursie 11y ago
I'm not sure that Shulgin actually invented MDMA did he? Certainly he dedicated his life to discovery and testing of all sorts of interesting things, and his legacy is enormous, but I didn't think that one was his invention.
- tyho 11y ago
  No, he rediscovered it and I believe he was the first one to try it.
dEnigma 11y ago
>LSD is known to be safe in at least 1000x the normal dose I'd love to see a citation for that
- Karunamon 11y ago
  Erowid's got a MSDS for LSD that puts the LD50 at 50mg/kg, so for a 150 pound person, that works out to 3.4 grams. A normal dose of LSD is measured in micrograms, so the 1000x statement is at least very conservative.
- tyho 11y ago
  http://www.lycaeum.org/research/researchpdfs/1977_griggs_1.pdf http://www.lycaeum.org/research/researchpdfs/1977_griggs_1.p... https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_death.shtml https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_death.shtml Ok, well maybe not 'safe', but people have taken that amount and survived. It is certainly not something I would recommend.
  - dEnigma 11y ago
    Thank you, I saw the erowid page before I posted and only read up to "more than 100 times a normal moderate dose of LSD" before I asked for a citation. Well, at least we know one shouldn't take 3200x the normal dose ;)
- enkephalin 11y ago
  if the ld50 is anywhere near that of mice or rats, even a 10000x dose could be non lethal.
- DanBC 11y ago
  They gave an elephant a very large dose, and it died, but they don't know if it was the LSD or the activity or the medical treatment that killed it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusko#The_elephant_on_LSD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusko#The_elephant_on_LSD > "Tusko" was also the name of a male Indian elephant at the Oklahoma City Zoo. On August 3, 1962,[4] researchers from the University of Oklahoma injected (human use involves oral ingestion) 297 mg of LSD (lysergic acid diethylamide) to him, which is over 1,000 times the dose typical of human recreational use. Within five minutes he collapsed to the ground and one hour and forty minutes later he died. It is believed that the LSD was the cause of his death, although some speculate that the drugs the researchers used in an attempt to revive him may have contributed to his death.

Cantremeber 11y ago

But at the same time we have things like nbomes which kill people and we don't know why. And then the other big issue with safety is when you get a white powder it's impossible to tell what it is without testing. People snort something they think is one drug, turns out they just took a massive of another.

Nursie 11y ago
We do indeed. I don't reckon many people would bother with them if they could buy LSD though. I find some novel psychedelics interesting, specifically anything that might not last quite so long.

Alex3917 11y ago

> The 2C family, for example, arose because of the ban on LSD/mescaline/mushrooms, and is considered to have similar safety profile as the originals. For what's it's worth many people think they have a higher risk of causing HPPD.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

Nursie 11y ago

FYI - the APBs are generally thought to have a lot higher affinity for the 5HT2b receptor than MDMA has. Activity at this receptor has been associated with heart-valve problems in the past, so it's probably even more important not to use them regularly than with MDMA. That said, when they were legal here, they were rather excellent...

Uberphallus 11y ago
That's misleading, MDMA itself has very little affinity for 5HT2b, but its action on the SERT dumps loads of serotonin which displays, by definition, pretty high affinity for it (Ki < 10, according to this https://www.acnp.org/g4/GN401000039/Ch039.html https://www.acnp.org/g4/GN401000039/Ch039.html). So even if the chemical doesn't show significant activity on 5HT2b in vitro, in vivo it actually does.
- Nursie 11y ago
  Fair enough! You're likely more informed than I am in these matters. So here's a question - I had assumed that the SERT-dumping action of MDMA took place in the brain and did not spread masses of serotonin to the rest of the body, is this correct? Or does MDMA trigger serotonin floods that do get out to the system in general? The drug (be it MDMA or xAPB) is swimming around the whole system and is therefore free to act on the 5HT2b receptors present in the heart itself, which could promote valve mutation. Is this true for the serotonin as well?
  - Uberphallus 11y ago
    The substance reaches wherever blood gets to, with exceptions when crossing the brain barrier. Most of the 5-HT receptors are in the brain though. It's not true for serotonin. Serotonin is to be released, taken back and metabolized locally, in and around the synapse. It doesn't travel around the body, at least in significant amounts, as hormones do.