4 ms·

I was at a training seminar where they were trying to go through the ethical dilemma of a manager who had two employees wanting to go home on time (one for spou

by Ntrails 12y ago

I was at a training seminar where they were trying to go through the ethical dilemma of a manager who had two employees wanting to go home on time (one for spousal medical issue, one for child based commitment) and asking how to decide which one is allowed to leave. I went a little apeshit at the premise itself, and indeed at the training company for re-enforcing the idea you need permission to leave at 5pm. Yesterday my manager asked me what I was doing this evening, and whether I could cover a release in terms of support. As it happens, I can. If I had plans of any kind my answer would have been "Sorry, nope. I've got plans so need to be out of the office by xx:xx".

yodsanklai 12y ago
> ... the idea you need permission to leave at 5pm. I hate this idea too. I'm lucky to be able to organize my work as I want to (working in academia). Asking a permission for such a thing sounds so wrong. However, this freedom comes with a price. I earn much less than most of my friends with the same education level and I have to admit that I suffer (a little) to have a lesser social status and little recognition. In the end, it's a matter of compromise.
- moron4hire 12y ago
  I disagree that compromise is necessary. I've found that one merely needs to avoid any organization that routinely hires MBAs and HR directors as a good litmus test for whether or not the place will try to grind me down. That can be hard to do in software development, especially if you end up getting stuck in consulting[1]. Hence why I freelance now. I work 20 hours a week and I gross more than I ever did working for The Man. People always tell me, "Oh, I could never do that, I like knowing I have a regular job," but they don't realize that A) they could get fired at any minute just because their boss doesn't like them, and B) I've had the same client for the last 3 years, which is longer than I've stayed at any job I've ever had before. As long as you're working for someone else, as long as you aren't making the actual profit off of your work, your work will always be treated as a cost center, rather than an income center. You will never be paid the full value of your work, because there would be no point to paying someone to do the work if there were no profit in it for the employer. Ultimately, I'd like to get out of freelancing, but for now, at least freelancing lets me demand a higher portion of the margin. I've found it also seems to set me in a position of being a peer to my client (we are both business men) rather than a subordinate. It's a small difference that makes all the difference. [1] It's incredibly hard to transition from a job in consulting to a job in a product-based software company. I think it's mostly that there are so few of the latter compared to the former, but I suspect the latter looks askew at people with a history at the former as well.
  - notduncansmith 12y ago
    With regard to your footnote, I actually just made that switch. I haven't noticed any negative feedback - they welcomed me just like any other team member. I'm actually much, much happier working at a product company than as a consultant.
- Nursie 12y ago
  Contracting, in the UK, is the way to work this. I'm not an employee, I don't have to pretend to care about career advancement and I get paid for the time I'm here. The money is actually better though I have to sort out my own pension provisions etc. And I don't ask anyone's permission for anything, because they're my clients, not my manager.
  - dasboth 12y ago
    This is my long term plan to achieve the level of freedom I'd like. Out of interest was it difficult to start (get your first gig)?
    - Nursie 12y ago
      The first one was easy actually, and the second. Then I took a month off between contracts and it took another two or three months to find the third, and I had a bit of a gap last year when looking for the fourth (where I am now) too. YMMV. If you're in London it's probably pretty easy. Elsewhere you'll need to be financially prepared for the odd two-three month hiatus.
  - Singletoned 12y ago
    I'll second this. I recently switched from permanent to contract work, and I love it. Walking out the door at 17:30 on the dot and completely forgetting about work until the next day is very liberating. Also, you aren't involved in office politics and you can upwardly delegate any decisions that you don't want to make ("I'm afraid I'm just a contractor, you'll have to ask my manager about that). As a developer, I really get to get my head down and work hard, which is what I most enjoy about this job.
  - mml 12y ago
    Contracting in the U.S. too, but many contractors "go native" and forget they can basically come and go as they please.
    - moron4hire 12y ago
      I try to maintain an objective distance from my clients. I refuse to do on-site work. I announce hours or days of unavailability, not request time off. I have a few subcontractors that do a modicum of work for me--though their productivity is certainly appreciated and I pay them for it, I'm more interested in the image it creates that it's not just me. I specifically don't reply to emails right away. I maintain separate servers from them and refuse to accept passwords to their production servers (consequentially, because I can't just "go fix it" for them, I think it's made their other developers more cautious about testing).
- coldcode 12y ago
  If I need permission to leave after 8 hours I simply won't ever come back.

by Ntrails 12y ago

yodsanklai 12y ago

> ... the idea you need permission to leave at 5pm. I hate this idea too. I'm lucky to be able to organize my work as I want to (working in academia). Asking a permission for such a thing sounds so wrong. However, this freedom comes with a price. I earn much less than most of my friends with the same education level and I have to admit that I suffer (a little) to have a lesser social status and little recognition. In the end, it's a matter of compromise.

moron4hire 12y ago
I disagree that compromise is necessary. I've found that one merely needs to avoid any organization that routinely hires MBAs and HR directors as a good litmus test for whether or not the place will try to grind me down. That can be hard to do in software development, especially if you end up getting stuck in consulting[1]. Hence why I freelance now. I work 20 hours a week and I gross more than I ever did working for The Man. People always tell me, "Oh, I could never do that, I like knowing I have a regular job," but they don't realize that A) they could get fired at any minute just because their boss doesn't like them, and B) I've had the same client for the last 3 years, which is longer than I've stayed at any job I've ever had before. As long as you're working for someone else, as long as you aren't making the actual profit off of your work, your work will always be treated as a cost center, rather than an income center. You will never be paid the full value of your work, because there would be no point to paying someone to do the work if there were no profit in it for the employer. Ultimately, I'd like to get out of freelancing, but for now, at least freelancing lets me demand a higher portion of the margin. I've found it also seems to set me in a position of being a peer to my client (we are both business men) rather than a subordinate. It's a small difference that makes all the difference. [1] It's incredibly hard to transition from a job in consulting to a job in a product-based software company. I think it's mostly that there are so few of the latter compared to the former, but I suspect the latter looks askew at people with a history at the former as well.
- notduncansmith 12y ago
  With regard to your footnote, I actually just made that switch. I haven't noticed any negative feedback - they welcomed me just like any other team member. I'm actually much, much happier working at a product company than as a consultant.
Nursie 12y ago
Contracting, in the UK, is the way to work this. I'm not an employee, I don't have to pretend to care about career advancement and I get paid for the time I'm here. The money is actually better though I have to sort out my own pension provisions etc. And I don't ask anyone's permission for anything, because they're my clients, not my manager.
- dasboth 12y ago
  This is my long term plan to achieve the level of freedom I'd like. Out of interest was it difficult to start (get your first gig)?
  - Nursie 12y ago
    The first one was easy actually, and the second. Then I took a month off between contracts and it took another two or three months to find the third, and I had a bit of a gap last year when looking for the fourth (where I am now) too. YMMV. If you're in London it's probably pretty easy. Elsewhere you'll need to be financially prepared for the odd two-three month hiatus.
- Singletoned 12y ago
  I'll second this. I recently switched from permanent to contract work, and I love it. Walking out the door at 17:30 on the dot and completely forgetting about work until the next day is very liberating. Also, you aren't involved in office politics and you can upwardly delegate any decisions that you don't want to make ("I'm afraid I'm just a contractor, you'll have to ask my manager about that). As a developer, I really get to get my head down and work hard, which is what I most enjoy about this job.
- mml 12y ago
  Contracting in the U.S. too, but many contractors "go native" and forget they can basically come and go as they please.
  - moron4hire 12y ago
    I try to maintain an objective distance from my clients. I refuse to do on-site work. I announce hours or days of unavailability, not request time off. I have a few subcontractors that do a modicum of work for me--though their productivity is certainly appreciated and I pay them for it, I'm more interested in the image it creates that it's not just me. I specifically don't reply to emails right away. I maintain separate servers from them and refuse to accept passwords to their production servers (consequentially, because I can't just "go fix it" for them, I think it's made their other developers more cautious about testing).
coldcode 12y ago
If I need permission to leave after 8 hours I simply won't ever come back.