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I can absolutely see this at an investment bank, or at a job where physical presence is mandatory (such as a security guard, a teacher, or a bank teller). In a

I can absolutely see this at an investment bank, or at a job where physical presence is mandatory (such as a security guard, a teacher, or a bank teller). In a creative job like software, it's absurd. Especially when so many places say, "Come when you want".

VLM 11y ago
As a contrarian view, I kinda like the strict schedule. Lets face it, you're going to have to suffer thru primate dominance rituals. This particular dominance ritual is well understood and easily worked around and isn't all that painful and usually isn't very punishing. What I'm getting at is the alternatives for the boss to throw some weight around and show who's boss are generally worse than a mere schedule. "Oh, so that's your game. Well, I know it, can play it, can play it well. Bring it on." Of all the situations to invoke the famous quote "Thank you Sir may I have another" I feel the best with a simple schedule.
- fu9ar 11y ago
  Calling an Industrial Age invention a primate dominance ritual is insane.
  - lifeisstillgood 11y ago
    I don't think that's the parents meaning. There always have been and will be dominance rituals. Some would have been physical fights, but in modern office culture punching subordinates is seen as unacceptable - but some people still need some dominance rituals - and picking a fight over "do as I tell you and turn up on time, thus demonstrating I am the dominant one" is pretty tame stuff compared to a silver back ripping your ear off.
    - fu9ar 11y ago
      Making the argument that those two behaviors, management insisting on punctuality and violent bodily mutilation, are commensurable is the exact kind of insane thinking that I am criticizing.
      - dec0dedab0de 11y ago
        It's the motivation that is the same. If you haven't seen it in action you're either very lucky, or not very observant.
        spectralnischay 11y ago
        Yes, but going back to the parent's point, while you may think it's instinctive to have a dominance trait, the "come on time" rule is only there probably because the manager's superordinate instilled it in him. I guarantee you we are not going back to our primate roots when we wake up and get to office, and OP might be thinking this in too much of a literal sense.
        fu9ar 11y ago
        No. It's not the same motivation. Human hierarchical social behavior is not the same as other primates. It's much more complicated and in most human situations social status is based on a constellation of intangibles rather than who can literally rip the other's face off.
vonmoltke 11y ago
Then why bother with an office at all? We have discussions here about remote work and private offices disrupting team communication, but if your team isn't all in the office at the same time I don't see how that is any better.
- jonny_eh 11y ago
  Physical presence is still valuable. But strict times for creative jobs are less so.
- rifung 11y ago
  I like coming in the office to be honest. I prefer face to face communication and also usually am much more productive at work than at home. I think it's just easier to get into the mood when I'm at my desk at work. Also, even though not everyone comes in at the same time usually there are "core hours" where everyone is expected to be in the office. At my last job this was from 10-3. I don't think it's too unreasonable for a team to be able to find some time when everyone can be in the office, especially when it's only a few hours long. Of course, this could all be simulated as well if people had work environments. Still, I find face to face interaction much better than trying to communicate online, even with video chat. Maybe it's just about finding the right software to help, but I find being able to talk at the white board invaluable.
  - vonmoltke 11y ago
    > Also, even though not everyone comes in at the same time usually there are "core hours" where everyone is expected to be in the office. At my last job this was from 10-3. I don't think it's too unreasonable for a team to be able to find some time when everyone can be in the office, especially when it's only a few hours long. I don't think it's unreasonable, either. In fact, I think it's necessary to run a successful business with more than one person. However, it's not "absurd" to have some definition of late or to expect some consistency in when particular people arrive. That said, the original described case is overly and unnecessarily rigid.
- mathattack 11y ago
stephengillie 11y ago
A major reason for a lack of WFH is due to a manager's inability to manage WFH - these are people that have only been taught how to keep people on task, and have to physically view your body in order to know what you are thinking and doing. Many of us are well acquainted with the indirect communication from ticket systems, email, and other sources of social noise. We're used to managers who can take a collection of tickets and email, and deduce what their reports are doing. But many people are unable to do this, or untrained. And since they are taught to be suspicious that you're stealing from the company (as all mediocre managers are) they mistrust the tickets, email, and other documentation you create.
- mathattack 11y ago
  This assumes that the managers know the details of the employee's jobs too. This gets less true when you become a general manager. But there's a big difference between "I'm managing your time" and "I'm managing your result" which the General Manager is on the hook for.
  - taurath 11y ago
    If you don't know the details of your employees jobs, you know their skillset and their ability to deliver results even if you don't know the techniques they use. If you're even slightly clever about communication styles it can work fine, although it does mean that motivation must be treated as a thing that should rarely waver. The more mature and skilled the person is and the more trust you have the less likely it is to cause issues.
- kamaal 11y ago
  This isn't even WFH, the person just wanted to drop their son and come to office around 5 minutes late. If you can't handle 5 minutes of delay in some one coming to office, I would deduce you must be super bad in building long lasting relationships with people. Who takes some one to task on coming a few minutes late? This lies at the heart of the problems plaguing our Industry. The people doing the direction and management are nothing more than glorified email routers. Often who got lucky, and got promoted and now simply try to maintain their positions through command and control.
monksy 11y ago
> "Come when you want". Except for anyone who does daily standups first thing in the morning.
- andyroid 11y ago
  We do that. And attending via Skype is perfectly OK.

VLM 11y ago

As a contrarian view, I kinda like the strict schedule. Lets face it, you're going to have to suffer thru primate dominance rituals. This particular dominance ritual is well understood and easily worked around and isn't all that painful and usually isn't very punishing. What I'm getting at is the alternatives for the boss to throw some weight around and show who's boss are generally worse than a mere schedule. "Oh, so that's your game. Well, I know it, can play it, can play it well. Bring it on." Of all the situations to invoke the famous quote "Thank you Sir may I have another" I feel the best with a simple schedule.

fu9ar 11y ago
Calling an Industrial Age invention a primate dominance ritual is insane.
- lifeisstillgood 11y ago
  I don't think that's the parents meaning. There always have been and will be dominance rituals. Some would have been physical fights, but in modern office culture punching subordinates is seen as unacceptable - but some people still need some dominance rituals - and picking a fight over "do as I tell you and turn up on time, thus demonstrating I am the dominant one" is pretty tame stuff compared to a silver back ripping your ear off.
  - fu9ar 11y ago
    Making the argument that those two behaviors, management insisting on punctuality and violent bodily mutilation, are commensurable is the exact kind of insane thinking that I am criticizing.
    - dec0dedab0de 11y ago
      It's the motivation that is the same. If you haven't seen it in action you're either very lucky, or not very observant.
      - spectralnischay 11y ago
        Yes, but going back to the parent's point, while you may think it's instinctive to have a dominance trait, the "come on time" rule is only there probably because the manager's superordinate instilled it in him. I guarantee you we are not going back to our primate roots when we wake up and get to office, and OP might be thinking this in too much of a literal sense.
      - fu9ar 11y ago
        No. It's not the same motivation. Human hierarchical social behavior is not the same as other primates. It's much more complicated and in most human situations social status is based on a constellation of intangibles rather than who can literally rip the other's face off.

vonmoltke 11y ago

Then why bother with an office at all? We have discussions here about remote work and private offices disrupting team communication, but if your team isn't all in the office at the same time I don't see how that is any better.

jonny_eh 11y ago
Physical presence is still valuable. But strict times for creative jobs are less so.
rifung 11y ago
I like coming in the office to be honest. I prefer face to face communication and also usually am much more productive at work than at home. I think it's just easier to get into the mood when I'm at my desk at work. Also, even though not everyone comes in at the same time usually there are "core hours" where everyone is expected to be in the office. At my last job this was from 10-3. I don't think it's too unreasonable for a team to be able to find some time when everyone can be in the office, especially when it's only a few hours long. Of course, this could all be simulated as well if people had work environments. Still, I find face to face interaction much better than trying to communicate online, even with video chat. Maybe it's just about finding the right software to help, but I find being able to talk at the white board invaluable.
- vonmoltke 11y ago
  > Also, even though not everyone comes in at the same time usually there are "core hours" where everyone is expected to be in the office. At my last job this was from 10-3. I don't think it's too unreasonable for a team to be able to find some time when everyone can be in the office, especially when it's only a few hours long. I don't think it's unreasonable, either. In fact, I think it's necessary to run a successful business with more than one person. However, it's not "absurd" to have some definition of late or to expect some consistency in when particular people arrive. That said, the original described case is overly and unnecessarily rigid.
mathattack 11y ago

stephengillie 11y ago

A major reason for a lack of WFH is due to a manager's inability to manage WFH - these are people that have only been taught how to keep people on task, and have to physically view your body in order to know what you are thinking and doing. Many of us are well acquainted with the indirect communication from ticket systems, email, and other sources of social noise. We're used to managers who can take a collection of tickets and email, and deduce what their reports are doing. But many people are unable to do this, or untrained. And since they are taught to be suspicious that you're stealing from the company (as all mediocre managers are) they mistrust the tickets, email, and other documentation you create.

mathattack 11y ago
This assumes that the managers know the details of the employee's jobs too. This gets less true when you become a general manager. But there's a big difference between "I'm managing your time" and "I'm managing your result" which the General Manager is on the hook for.
- taurath 11y ago
  If you don't know the details of your employees jobs, you know their skillset and their ability to deliver results even if you don't know the techniques they use. If you're even slightly clever about communication styles it can work fine, although it does mean that motivation must be treated as a thing that should rarely waver. The more mature and skilled the person is and the more trust you have the less likely it is to cause issues.
kamaal 11y ago
This isn't even WFH, the person just wanted to drop their son and come to office around 5 minutes late. If you can't handle 5 minutes of delay in some one coming to office, I would deduce you must be super bad in building long lasting relationships with people. Who takes some one to task on coming a few minutes late? This lies at the heart of the problems plaguing our Industry. The people doing the direction and management are nothing more than glorified email routers. Often who got lucky, and got promoted and now simply try to maintain their positions through command and control.

monksy 11y ago

> "Come when you want". Except for anyone who does daily standups first thing in the morning.

andyroid 11y ago
We do that. And attending via Skype is perfectly OK.